Helping siblings move away from competing and towards cooperating
August 21, 2023
[Kyle]: In today's podcast we're going to talk about competition. Are you kind of tired of all the competing among the siblings and a lot of the big tears about winning and losing? Well, we're going to help you try to change those dynamics in your family today.
[Kyle]: Hello, and welcome to episode 81 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.
[Sara]: And I’m Sara.
[Kyle]: And today we're going to talk about competition among siblings. You know, Sara, I see a lot of families who this can cause a lot of problems, you know? Where siblings are constantly fighting against each other to try to win and getting really big emotions about losing to each other.
[Sara]: Yeah. It's incredibly common, I think you'd say it's just part of growing up that this will come up with siblings.
[Kyle]: And I thought of this topic because I bet a lot of families, school is probably back in session for them or about to be and so, you've had a long summer of spending time together, and I bet a lot of opportunities to see this kind of interaction, you know? Especially with playing games, video games, board games and so, typically, a lot of these subjects we get from other parents, but we also get from our own personal experience and I know we've spent a lot of time playing games with our kids, a lot of really fun games, you know? And at times, it seems like winning is way too important.
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, right? I mean, even adults feel that plenty of times.
[Kyle]: Yes. Yeah.
[Sara]: Where you get caught up in the competition and you're all excited about winning, and then someone swoops in and beats you. Feels pretty terrible.
[Kyle]: Yeah. You've done that a lot to me. A lot of games we've played and at some point, I think it might be fun to do a podcast on really fun games that we like to play.
[Sara]: Oh yeah.
[Kyle]: So, one of the funnest ones that one of our friends (shout out to the Davidsons), they introduced us to-- What's it called again?
[Sara]: Rainbow Pirates.
[Kyle]: Rainbow Pirates. Rainbow Pirates is a really fun card game.
[Sara]: it is.
[Kyle]: That we've been playing a lot from our seven-year-old on up. Our seven-year-old actually beats us quite a bit in Rainbow Pirates.
[Sara]: Yeah. If you need a recommendation for a real easy card game that's fun for up to five players.
[Kyle]: Yeah. So, sometime maybe we'll do that. A podcast just some really fun family games.
[Sara]: Yeah, and why we choose them.
[Kyle]: Exactly. So, we've been playing that game quite a bit, and there's been a lot of tears.
[Sara]: Yeah. Especially initially when you're first learning it, mastering it and yeah.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and you can really feel the disappointment. Now, part of me is I'm glad that they want to win, right?
[Kyle]: Like I'm saying, that makes the game fun. You and I want to win too.
[Kyle]: And I know we're a lot older than them, so hopefully we have a better-- But I know some kids that come in-- I know as a kid, I didn't. A lot of times I didn't play games with my dad because he was just way too competitive, you know? That it seemed like winning was the goal of playing. It wasn't just enjoying each other, right?
[Kyle]: And really having a good time playing the game.
[Sara]: Right, and enjoying just the competition.
[Kyle]: Yeah. So, I wanted to hit upon that. That's one reason why I want you-- If you've been playing games all summer with the kids and you're seeing a lot of this competitiveness come out and it's kind of just breaking your heart that they just seem to be, you know, kind of cutthroat win-at-all-cost type thing and it's causing a lot-- Or even silly stuff like, who gets the front seat in the car. These kinds of competitive things, kind of against each other, all those kinds of things. But also, as the school year has started, I think it'd be great for you to implement things like game night and have fun and ways to connect. You know, maybe every other Friday we do game night and we connect on this way, by playing games. But I think it's really good to kind of understand how to create a family where this competition isn't hurting the relationships, you know?
[Kyle]: So, I'm drawing some of this information, Sara, from a really good book that we like that a lot of our parenting comes from. Dr. Laura Markham has a book called Peaceful Parents, Happy Siblings, and I love her subtitle: How to Raise Friends for Life and so, I remember reading it and it really helped me get this imagination that my kids could grow up to become friends for life and it's just not something you see a lot with siblings, you know? I mean, siblings can enjoy each other and get along, but typically your friends are the ones you're deeper or more close to, you know? At least in my experience and so, you have this kind of blood connection with the siblings, but because a lot of this competition-- I know specifically in my family, it kind of wore that out. It made it harder to really be know because you're always trying to win.
[Sara]: Yeah. A lot of unresolved conflict.
[Kyle]: That's true.
[Sara]: That carries through the years.
[Kyle]: So, Markham starts first with these three key points and then I want to get into ways to help your children feel more secure and less competitive, okay?
[Kyle]: So, the first kind of thing that's kind of in the air is this statement “it's not fair”.
[Sara]: Right, right.
[Kyle]: It's not fair. That really drives a lot of the conflict, you know?
[Sara]: Yeah, I'd say every kid has got to have said that at least once in their life.
[Kyle]: Uh huh, and felt it and sincerely meant it, right?
[Sara]: Pretty sure. For sure.
[Kyle]: And the retort typically by a parent is…
[Sara]: “Life is not fair”.
[Kyle]: Solved. That’s right.
[Sara]: There, made it all better.
[Kyle]: Even though I know I have said that. I know I've said it and even though many times as an adult I have felt the exact same thing.
[Sara]: I think it is what we tell ourselves.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah.
[Sara]: You know, because you get passed over for promotion or some person cuts you. I don't know, whatever happens in the grocery store, something happens. Then that's kind of like “oh, this isn't fair. How come I was here? I waited in line” or whatever it might be, but you tell yourself “Well, life isn't fair”.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. They kind of almost like, make you feel better or maybe accept it. Accept that fact, right?
[Sara]: Yeah, it may be.
[Kyle]: So, I love how Markham breaks it down with these three points. One, a sense of fairness is innate. So, that she makes the argument that that's within all of us. All of us, for some reason, have this drive that we want things to be more fair, you know?
[Kyle]: And then two, that kids desperately want to know that you love them more than anyone else because their survival depends on it, you know? So, that the reason why they want things to be fair is because they want your love to be equal, you know? They want your love to be the same. So, when things look unfair, it may be perceived by the kid that you love the other person more.
[Kyle]: And then the third point is children aren't that different from adults, that we feel the same way. I know I have felt that with my kids. There's times where there's something you're getting to do with the kids, and I just think “well, that's not fair”, you know? Or the kid wants to do with you instead of me and I think “well, that kind of hurts”, because in that moment, I do think the kid might love you more than me or maybe the kid is holding more resentment towards me, right?
[Kyle]: So, I think we have this kind of gnawing sense of “that's not fair”.
[Sara]: And I don't think parents mention that a whole lot, but if we dig deep, I do think a lot of us feel like “okay, you love me, right? You love me, and I'm really important to you” and we do feel that same tension that children feel and that same sense of seeking and wanting to be loved and important.
[Kyle]: Well, I'm sure every parent listening to this will relate to this, Sara. I remember when Abby was very little and you were putting her to bed most of the time because I was working late and then I had some time where I could do that, and she said “Cool! Dad's home! I want him to put me to bed” and I was like “Yes! I'm loved” and then as I was going to put her to bed, she goes “Actually, I changed my mind. I want mom” and I was like “What!?” and I got so hurt and then she's like “no, no, no, I'll go ahead and do you”. I'm like “no, too late, too late. You want mom? You get mom” and I was like, just so childish about it, but it was because I really did feel hurt.
[Sara]: Yeah, you were hurt.
[Sara]: Yeah, and she was seeking what was familiar and known to her, and this felt very different.
[Kyle]: And I think underneath, it was “this isn't fair. Why does mom get to do it? Why does Sara get to do this every day? I want to do this with her”, you know? And so, that sense of unfairness and I think that's-- Well, obviously that's what the legal system is based upon in our culture, right?
[Kyle]: We want our judicial system to be fair and just and then, there's also-- I think that's what I love about sports, is sports is like a microcosm of life where things are supposed to be more fair.
[Sara]: And we even hook up cameras and do replays and have referees, and a lot of the tension that happens in sports is around people feeling like something wasn't fair.
[Kyle]: Yes. Yeah. So, here are eight things. Some of these are directly from Markham's book, with some I've added as well. But eight things to help your child feel more secure and less competitive, okay? Number one, I mean, this is probably one of the most important is empathize, you know? And what I mean by that, Sara, is when a kid says a thing isn't fair or a kid is getting too competitive and saying “oh, but you did this” or “they got that last time”. Instead of arguing with how they feel about it, acknowledge with them-- Acknowledging them will help them feel understood. So, what I'm saying is acknowledging what they're saying and that you get it. That you could see why they see it that way, right?
[Kyle]: It will help them feel understood, which means they can stop fighting for it.
[Sara]: Right? And we-- I don't know. I can imagine it and I can remember moments where I felt like someone got me and it doesn't matter if they agree with me, they got me. They got what I was saying and what I was feeling and our children are the same way. There's something, it's like a balm to the soul when you feel understood and so, when I'm listening to my kid and my brain is going “yeah, but it doesn't matter” or whatever, if I can just step into when I felt that same way and it doesn't need to be the same situation. But have I ever felt cheated? Have I ever felt overlooked or whatever? The fairness might be related to. Have I ever felt that way? Yes, and go to that moment and you just feel this connection that happens with you and your child and it just eases so much of that tension because it's like “you know this too. You know this feeling and how hard it is”.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and it's important to remember. It doesn't mean you're agreeing with them, whatever their argument is, how irrational or rational it is. You're just saying “I understand how you'd feel that way”, right?
[Kyle]: And this is such a great gift to the kid because then the kid doesn't feel so alone in it. So, the kid doesn't have to fight for themselves so much.
[Kyle]: They're like “oh, you get it. Oh, great.”
[Sara]: Yeah, “this person that's so important to me understands. Whether you agree or not, you understand what I'm feeling. Thank you”.
[Kyle]: Yeah. I don't know how many times my college football team has gotten messed over by a ref, and I've called a friend who maybe didn't empathize with me and it just turned into a big argument, right?
[Kyle]: But there’s another friend that said “oh yeah, I could totally see how you would think the ref should have called that” and I was like “thank you. That's right, the ref didn’t--”. Just that feel. I think all of the adults who love sports can also relate to that. You just want someone just to be like “yeah, I could see how that would be frustrating, man”.
[Sara]: How often we do that with work scenarios? We call someone “you wouldn't believe what happened at work today” or with the-- Yeah, we all feel that way.
[Kyle]: So, number one is empathizing with them when they're feeling like things aren't fair or somehow, they've gotten the short end of the stick. Number two, focus on what each child wants rather than getting hooked in when they compare or compete. You know, I definitely feel like I can do that. So, it's easy to get caught up in being right and winning and going “oh, no, no, no, that's not true. Last time…”.
[Sara]: Oh yeah
[Kyle]: You can get very easily hooked by triggered by some of the statements.
[Sara]: “Hey, but you shouldn’t feel like this isn't unfair. Don't you remember last week when such and such happened?”
[Kyle]: Yes, yes. So, then we actually end up missing the point of what the child is really needing, which what the child is really needing in that moment is they need to feel connected. They need to feel like they're not the looser, you know? So, Markham talks about in that moment of kind of sidestepping that and just saying “you're right. I really feel like sometimes that has--” or like “I can definitely see how you would feel that. I think I want to give you a hug right now. Can I give you a hug?” and moving into that's really what the kid's needing. The kid's needing a hug, the kid's needing the connection. It's not really winning the argument that the kid needs.
[Sara]: Right, right. It's going to that deeper desire inside the child and sometimes that's a little hard to get to. You really have to be in tune with your kid and really kind of listening through the words. What's past the words, what's below that, and addressing that, the heart of the child kind of idea.
[Kyle]: Okay. Number three is, give material possessions based on need, but be sure your love is limitless. So, what she was emphasizing there is a lot of times kids will compare themselves in a sense of what one kid is getting and how they're not getting it. Like “that kid got-- How much did you spend on their birthday? As opposed to my birthday”, right?
[Kyle]: And why are they doing that? Because they're connecting the material possessions to your love and sometimes, we can give off that impression, you know? Somebody we love more, we spend more money on, you know? And the person we love less, we don't spend as much money on, you know? But we really want to make sure we're sending a healthy message that I know for you and I; we are-- Faith is important to us and we do believe that love is infinite. Material possessions are finite, but our love is infinite and even if we're not good at always consistently showing that, that we want to make sure we're sending that message, even just intentionally with our words and then trying to back it up with those actions.
[Kyle]: So, if they're feeling that sense of “but you bought that for them and bought this--”. “Material possessions are only for needs, but the love you need is going to be limitless. I'm always willing to give that”.
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. That's so powerful. How much we do as a society and function so much as things being a representation of love.
[Kyle]: Well, I think even as adults. We go “why does that person have a better house than me or a better car? It seems as if they are more loved in some way”, you know?
[Sara]: Yeah, and we give jewelry or we do these gifts as expressions of love, and sometimes it's like, this blur happens, that is now love, instead of keeping those things separate. There's nothing wrong with giving a gift to show your love, things like that, but we just always want to make sure the message is “my love is limitless. This is a thing for your needs”.
[Kyle]: So, number three is all about you just as a couple or you as a single parent, reflecting upon “what emphasis am I giving to possessions?” and “am I telling my kids and making sure I'm modeling to my kids that my love is infinite, that it's always there when they need it?”.
[Kyle]: Okay. Number four, don't be afraid-- And I think a lot of listeners will find this interesting. Don't be afraid to treat children differently, right?
[Sara]: Yeah, Because even your kids, right? [Unintelligible] be like “How come you did this with so and so and not me?” and as a parent, you feel the pressure of “okay, I got to make sure I did this with so, with him, and now I'm going to do this with her, and we're going to keep it all fair and even” and yeah.
[Kyle]: Well, and I found that as a school counselor, a lot of parents insisted on that. They had this idea that fair was equal. So, treating everybody the exact same was how you came to fairness and my principal, who was I thought a really great principal, would constantly say “fair is not always equal”.
[Sara]: Yeah. So good.
[Kyle]: You know? And her-- What she was talking about in her book, she said kids in research, they actually don't mind being treated differently if they inevitably think the outcome is fair, you know?
[Kyle]: Like, and I feel like it's actually unfair if you do treat all children the same. Why? Because they're all inherently different!
[Sara]: They have different needs, different desires, different personalities. So, yeah. How much more is it to-- I'm going to meet you where you're at and I'm going to meet you, your sibling, where they're at.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and a lot of kids I've helped in sessions, Sara, they'll say “that thing that worked for my brother, I don't want that. I actually don't want them to do that for me”.
[Sara]: Yes. Yeah, it’s a great example.
[Kyle]: But parents “but that's what we do with him and now we're going to do that with you” and there's kind of this rigidness to it because they believe that by doing it all equal, it makes it all fair.
[Sara]: Yeah, and an attempt to reduce conflict, right?
[Kyle]: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[Sara]: Because if you do it differently, then you might have to talk about that and try to explain it and things like that. But it sounds so much better if “I'm going to treat you with how you need and what you want in life and I'm looking at you as a person. I'm looking at that person as a person”.
[Kyle]: Well, because I know so many times even things like, a fight would break out in school and kids would have hurt each other and a parent would want to come back and know that we gave an equal type of outcome to each kid, when we knew those kids and we knew the goal was to help those kids do that situation better, you know? So, we gave them whatever outcome they needed to do that better, instead of just saying “well, this outcome should work for all kids”, which is just crazy because each kid is different.
[Kyle]: And so, I think in a family, the kid wants to know you know them and what best would fit their need at that moment, you know? So, don't be afraid to treat your children differently and I actually think it's also really healthy for siblings to know that, because then they don't constantly pursue just equality constantly, you know? Which I think can create a lot of conflict. So, number five, I think this is obvious to a lot of parents but I want to emphasize is never compare and this is a quote I'm taking from the book. Markham says “our comparisons reinforce what we think about our children and therefore shape the way we treat them”. So, our comparisons reinforce the way we think about our children and therefore shape the way we treat them and maybe even worse, every comparison we make encourages our children to compare themselves. Kids whose parents make comments comparing them to each other are more likely to compete and fight.
[Sara]: Yeah, that one to me, I think it's really hard to not compare. As a parent, I find it. I find, though, that I feel like I compare sometimes my kids to each other and sometimes I compare them to myself or as a kid, you know? “By this age, I could do this or I struggled--”. You know, and you're kind of comparing and I don't know. I don't know if it's just something that's in us and stuff.
[Kyle]: Sure. Yeah, yeah.
[Sara]: But yeah, I also know the pain I felt being compared as a kid by a teacher, by a parent, by anybody, to somebody else or the opposite of that is like “oh, yes, look at me”.
[Kyle]: I know. That's what I was going to say. I was going to say a lot of times I felt compared in a positive way because maybe I was doing things better than my siblings, and so therefore, I was like-- Oh, but then I felt there's this pressure of “I've got to keep that up because this is who I am. That's what they love about me. So, now I've got to be that”, you know?
[Sara]: Yeah, it really does tie into love or lack of love and “how lovable am I?” and “I need to be the best” and that whole comparison thing is just messy and we need to stay away from it.
[Kyle]: Something she recommends, Sara, that I thought was really a good way to change this is, try to focus on your child just as an individual. So, see them as completely separate from any other people they know or don't compare them to other people. When you focus them on them as an individual, rather than in comparison with the sibling, you'll start to see more clearly what the kid is struggling with and where the child might need your support, instead of seeing the child lacking something that the other sibling has, you know?
[Kyle]: So, I thought just maybe mentally for the listeners to do that. If you find yourself comparing a lot, even do that to yourself. If you find yourself comparing yourself to other parents, you know? That's a big issue.
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. “That parent does this so well” or “they have this and this and I don't”.
[Kyle]: Yes. But you are an individual, you are not them and so, I think Dr. Siegel will call that differentiation. Just knowing “I am not you” and that's good. We shouldn't be the same, you know?
[Kyle]: So, number five was, never compare. Number six, resist labeling. What that means is stuff like, we can call “oh, that kid's my responsible kid” or “that's my wild kid”, right? And you may not even be saying that out loud, but you might be thinking it. You know, I know we've seen that a lot on social media at times where parents may be even jokingly doing that, labeling their kids a certain way, and every time-- I'm not saying it's bad, but I do kind of--
[Sara]: And you don't want to give too much energy to it, but yet at the same time, it's like “Oh, careful”. There's a little yellow flag of caution waving there about, if you're even joking, that means some part of you thought it. The joke comes from the thought even existing and sometimes we unknowingly start acting out from that place, even if we meant it as a joke or as just a little label, you know? Like a nickname or something for a kid. Sometimes those things go further than we want them to.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'm just thinking all the ways that we may even do that with a kid's introverted or extroverted. There's a lot of teenagers I see, Sara, who--
[Sara]: “I'm introverted”.
[Kyle]: Yeah, “I'm introverted” and so, therefore, there's all these things that they just assume they can never change because they are that.
[Sara]: “I’m a procrastinator. I'm OCD”.
[Kyle]: Yes. Yeah, yeah, “I'm a troublemaker” or “I'm the smart kid”, right?
[Kyle]: And so, you just feel them get trapped by these labels.
[Sara]: Yeah, “I'm a good kid”.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and even I thought was-- And she pointed out birth order. “I'm the oldest, I'm the middle, I'm the youngest” and so, there was just this--
[Sara]: Automatically means this list of things.
[Kyle]: “This is who I am”. Yeah, yeah. When she was saying the research shows that there's less proof that just that birth order-- I mean, it's really about how the parents interacting with that birth order, and that's how it defines it, right?
[Kyle]: So, you can change those things there, but I just think there's a lot that we just label and put on it, and we kind of get rigid about that. So, number six is resist labeling. Number seven, this is one I'm kind of adding in here that I think is really helpful, is moving away from framing or communicating things in a losing/winning dichotomy, okay? Mine's a little wordier than [Unintelligible]. But I would say I want to move away from constantly framing stuff as winning/losing, right/wrong, you know? We have another podcast. We talk about that because it puts only two categories. “If I'm not winning this game, I'm losing this game”, you know?
[Kyle]: When we all know that isn't true. There's a lot of times where I've lost a game on purpose because I wanted my kid to feel the joy and to see the joy in their face winning, I feel like I won with them, you know? Even though I held back a wild card I could have used or I knew-- Man, I remember one time-- I'm just ratting on my dad here. I remember one time I was playing him on chess, and my dad pulls out-- If any of you know chess, there's a move called “en passant”. I think is what it's called, it's a French term and he pulls that out right when I'm about to beat him and then I lose, and I would just feel like “What!? Where did this move come from!? You couldn't just let me win this one time!?” and it really discouraged me from wanting to play chess with him anymore, because I thought “what other rules has he not told me about that he's just going to pull out of nowhere”, you know?
[Kyle]: So, with the kids trying to help them, I love that they want to win and they want to really try their hardest to win, but also realizing that is not the inevitable goal. We don't live in a world where winning and losing is the only possibility when we're playing games or sports.
[Sara]: Yeah, it's kind of similar. Reminds me of that when you're taking a journey, when you're going somewhere, it's not just the destination, it's the journey. So, it's not just the outcome of the game. We could say it's the “how did we play?”, the joy of the competition and strategizing and whatever it might be. We want to make sure all those things are included, not just the end of the game.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah.
[Sara]: There's a lot more happening.
[Kyle]: Well, and I find that-- This one comes up a lot in session, a lot of helping parents when they're out playing basketball. If their kid is way too competitive, to tell the kid “Hey, I'm not coming out actually to beat you, I'm coming out just to enjoy this time with you”, you know? So, if I actually-- You know, sometimes it'll happen with kids as younger as six, seven or eight, the dad could obviously beat them and the kids really getting escalated or dysregulated because they're losing. Just say “my goal isn't to beat you; my goal is to enjoy you. Let's make that our goal”. So, lots of times it will be solved just by shifting your focus. Your focus isn't about winning or losing or framing it in that way, but communicating a different goal, you know? That we're here “when we play this game, I just want to enjoy it. If we're not enjoying it, let's stop playing the game”. Not in like “if we're not enjoying it, then we're not going to play!” and sometimes I can shift into that, but it is more about “if we're going to play this game, here’s the goal”, right?
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah.
[Kyle]: And then number eight is, fill each child's cup. Okay, what does that mean to you, Sara? When I say “fill each child's cup”.
[Sara]: That is their cup of being loved. Of love and I think we've all-- I mean, something we have a negative interaction or they have a negative interaction in life in any way, then some of the cup gets dumped out. But then when they're hugged and just seen for who they are and empathizing with them, any of those kinds of things fill their cup back up.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, and I would say this one, I find-- If you go back, this and empathizing are two kinds of base ones. That if you do these and then add the other one, sprinkle them throughout. But man, giving random hugs and kisses, words of affirmation throughout the day when you're not playing these games. Schedule time if you're not doing this one on one with your kids, to make sure they know that their love isn't-- Your love for them isn't connected to them winning. Their value isn't connected to them winning, you know?
[Kyle]: If they lose, they're not a loser because they know that you see them and you know them and you see beyond this moment, you know? So, I just think-- And to be honest with you, Sara, just doing that, it's for my benefit too.
[Sara]: It is.
[Kyle]: It makes me have more joy parenting them because just randomly throughout day, I'm noticing them and just giving them a random hug.
[Sara]: Fills your cup too.
[Kyle]: Yeah. I mean, sometimes I'll just whisper in Ellie's ear “I like you” and inevitably she'll turn around and say “I like you too”, you know? And it always feels so great and it's just so natural and smooth and so, then in these moments, I believe you'll see them less likely to get dysregulated out of fear that if they lose, they're somehow going to be rejected or not loved as much.
[Sara]: Yeah, because you're showing up to an event. Let's say you're showing up to play the game, and you're coming from a place of “I am fully loved and I'm feeling so good, my cup is full”. Then if you lose, it's taking a little out of that maybe. Maybe, you know? But if you're coming, “I'm already unloved, rejected. Now I lose too?” and that's the difference.
[Kyle]: Yeah. So, I hope you spent a lot of time this summer playing games with your kids, doing sports, doing board games, playing some video games and I hope if you're reflecting upon that and saying “man, I got more competitive than I'd like”. That you really feel like we gave you a bunch of tools today, and if it was helpful, please share it. Please comment. Please like it. It obviously helps us get better ratings with parenting podcasts, but I think it definitely could help a lot of families because I know there's a lot of families struggling with this among their siblings. They want the siblings to be friends for life and I just want to point you towards that book. It's a fantastic book. Dr. Markham's Happy Parents-- “Peaceful Parents, Happy Siblings: How to Raise Friends for Life” is a fantastic resource. So, thank you for listening today, and I hope the school year is starting off well.
[Sara]: We appreciate you all.