Episode 6

[Kyle]: Hello, welcome to episode 6 of The Art of Raising Humans podcast. I’m your host Kyle Wester.

[Sara]: I’m Sara Wester.

[Kyle]: And today we're going to talk about something that was very challenging for us initially. Maybe I speak for myself, but I was quite surprised at how big the emotions were when we had kids and I had no idea. If you told me we're working on emotional regulation, I would have said “What? What are you talking about?”. I feel kind of dumb because I was a counselor before we had kids [Laughter] And when we had them, I was like “these kids have really gigantic emotions”. I mean, on a scale of zero to ten, especially Abby when she was little, oh my lord, it was like at least an eight once a day. When you say like somewhere it would get up to a seven or eight, maybe that big.

[Kyle]: And I was like “this ain't happening in this house!” and I would just get so emotional back, because I was just shocked. I just thought “what is happening?” like, I want a peaceful home. So, I mean, tell me, what were your thoughts going into it about emotional regulation?

[Sara]: Well, again, I had worked with lots of little kids.

[Kyle]: Oh, that makes sense.

[Sara]: So, I expected the emotion and I knew that that was normal and I know, as a society we kind of think “ugh, emotion, just stuff it”. You're just this great person if you can just pack all that emotion away and stick it in some closet.

[Kyle]: Oh yeah, hide it down there, no one wants to see it.

[Sara]: Yeah, let it come out in your physical health or something, don't let it actually come out in your emotions. So-- or I think there's this trend of “no, let's have feelings”, but then they're just messy and they're just poured out and people-- So, we don't know what to do with emotions if we're packing them away and can't feel them, we're stuffing them, you know, don't cry or we're just a big mess of emotion, both of those are not actually regulating emotion.

[Sara]: And so, I knew from working with kids and from the learning that I had the privilege to be a part of, I wanted to actually be able to-- because I took-- I believed “don't have the emotion”, you were actually more of an emotional person, sometimes when I see--

[Kyle]: Just anger [Laughter]

[Sara]: Yeah, just anger, yeah, the other emotions just turned into anger, because the other emotions we don't want to feel.

[Kyle]: Exactly, yes.

[Sara]: But anger felt safe to have, right? So, I would see you and Abby, when she's two years old she'd have these big tantrums, emotions and then, it seemed like you were just trying to meet her and then be her [Laughter]

[Kyle]: Yeah, I was going to overwhelm her.

[Sara]: So, then she would pack that up.

[Kyle]: Exactly, precisely. So, I didn’t have to see it anymore.

[Sara]: Right and/or it just comes in, you just look at your child like “you better pack that emotion up”, you know, give them that look, the look of “not now! We're not having a tantrum! We're at the grocery store and that will be so embarrassing!” and it is, right? We've all been there where your child is having this big outburst and you're at a play date or you're at the grocery store and the judgy eyes cut turn your way. Whether they're actually judging you or not, you think they are.

[Kyle]: Yeah, you're judging yourself either way.

[Sara]: Right. So, emotions, emotional regulation is a big deal and I knew that I wanted my children to feel the feelings, learn emotional regulation. I had been practicing that with these other children I was working with, but it is different when it's in your home and its day to day and I felt, I’m such a good stuffer, that I felt sort of-- I have this still now, it's something I have to work through. How do you do that? How do you feel it? Sometimes I feel like “oh, it's so messy” and then “no, let's just pack it up” and “no, I don't want to just pack it up” and so, it was-- I know what my goal is, but it's something I still work out daily with my children, with myself.

[Kyle]: And I know this, once again, I sound really-- when I say this out loud, it's almost embarrassing, but I was in my 30s and I thought “I have every right to have all these big emotions, but this little kid needs to figure out what to do with these” [Laughter]

[Kyle]: It never hit me that she might be mirroring what I’m doing. It's just, it's so weird [Laughter] I don't know why I didn't think that, that I could yell, I could scream, I could get mad, but she was supposed to somehow be able to have self-control.

[Kyle]: And it didn't hit me until just a few key moments. There's a few-- I can think of-- I won't tell stories today, but there were a few key moments where I thought “wait, I think she's feeling jealousy right now”. “Oh my gosh like, jealousy's big, she's never felt it! No wonder that's so hard, she's never felt that feeling before!” or “she's feeling embarrassed” or “she's feeling disappointment” and those are big feelings that I’ve had a lifetime to work with. She's never ever felt these things before, why am I expecting more out of her ability to control her emotions and regulate them than I’m expecting out of myself? It's almost like I’m saying to her “I need you to get control of yourself, so then I can control myself”. I’m putting all of the impetus on the kid and I didn't care in my mind, if they were two, three, four, five. I don't care how young you were, if I was getting upset, my weird thought process was “I need you to not be upset, so then, that way I won't become upset”.

[Sara]: And I think we look at they're upset, because they're upset, they can't get this certain cookie or there was a toy at the store they wanted or their blocks fell down, right? We look at they're upset and we think “that's nothing to be upset about, get over it”.

[Sara]: But when we hold them in a different way than just this “I’m up here, you're down there, I’m going to decide what you can be upset about”. When we hold them as what is a step into their shoes, that is their world and just like, someone else could look at me and go “that's what you're upset about?”

[Sara]: And I would not-- that would offend me, that would be--

[Kyle]: It would belittle you.

[Sara]: Yes. You can't look at my world and tell me what I can or can't be upset about. I mean, they can, but yeah, we wouldn't do that, we wouldn't think that was okay, but we then do that to our children. We have to put ourselves in their shoes, that block, that cookie, that whatever is going on, is the equal thing to my car getting wrecked or in my world, if I’m in their shoes, they're the equal thing. So, if I hold them in that position, that place of honoring them and their feelings, then I look at their emotion as “wow, they're feeling this really big thing” and I used to tell myself “I don't have it all together” and I’m whatever age I was, but I’m expecting them, they've been on the earth two years or five years, whatever, eight years.

[Sara]: And I have this higher-- it's similar to what you said, there's a higher expectation that you should have it together in the eight years you've been here, even though when I take an honest look at myself, I don't have it all. So, maybe I shouldn't have the expectation on them. Inside the brain and what's going on there.

[Kyle]: Of course, it makes me think of being in the line at Chick-Fil-A one time, and I remember one day, it was a really beautiful day, the lime was taking longer than normal. Usually Chick-Fil-A is super quick and it's fast, that's why we like to go there because it's so quick and, of course, the kids like the food, but so, we're in line and I’m like “it's a pretty day, I have the sunroof down on the car, the windows down, listening some music. It's taking a little longer, but I don't even care because I’m having a great day”. Then I remember Abby was maybe four or five, she kicks the chair in front of her and says “come on already! What's taking so long!?” and I was like, “what is up with Abby!?” And I thought “wait, that's the same tantrum I have thrown many times”. Whether it's at a red light driving or whether it's in a drive-through; I have said that many times. So, going back to you saying how we judge with the other thing like, some of the stuff I get upset about is ridiculous [Laughter] Like I know I’ve been in line sitting there, waiting for food and somebody is taking a long time and I’ll have all these weird thoughts about like, “how much food did you stinking buy? Who are you buying for? You need to go through a couple of times if you're going to order that much food, stop making us all wait!”

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[Kyle]: I have all these like-- or “who's that incompetent person inside!?” like, all these judgments will be happening, which then justifies me getting upset and then, I’m modeling to the kids and then saying, they shouldn't have all those, right? I mean or so many times when like you would be at work and I’d be taking care of the kids and I would have a checklist and most of my upset was about the kids getting in the way of my checklist, you know? And I noticed on the days I didn't have a checklist, when I really just wanted to just be with them and maybe we'd go run this errand or not, it didn't matter, I just wasn't as upset, but I had places to be, places to go, it was incumbent upon the kids to all control their emotions and subjugate their feelings to mine, because my needs were always going to trump theirs. Which I think is interesting, because I can actually meet my own needs [Laughter] And they actually couldn't, you know? And they actually have to have me help them in many cases meet their needs, whether it's for food or even to get love and stuff as well, you know? So, I found that to be a real disparity in the expectations I had on myself, compared to what I had on them, you know?

[Kyle]: So, when it comes to emotional regulation, I think what we needed to do, what we're talking about here is, how to shift how we view emotion, okay? Like you talked about how we view it as pretty inconvenient, it's pretty messy, you know? It almost like someone-- when someone gets really emotional like, they're just throwing up stuff, you know? And so, how do you view emotion? Like, when you see a big outburst going, how do you approach the feeling?

[Sara]: Well, now, not that this is automatic, sometimes I very intentionally remind myself this is how I view emotion, but emotion is being human and it is where we're at in our brain. So, I don't know, do you want to talk about the brain and--

[Kyle]: Of course, yeah, go ahead.

[Sara]: We've touched on this before, but--

[Kyle]: In episode two.

[Sara]: Yes, in episode [Laughter] Out of all the other--

[Kyle]: That's right, yes.

[Sara]: We go back to two, but the-- So, I won't dive into a lot of it, but it's our amygdala, it's something is threatened inside of us, our safety, our sense of feeling loved and valued, something is going on, even if your emotion of having to wait in line and being frustrated by that, it's not that “oh, bad you for feeling frustrated”.
[Kyle]: Yes, yeah. “Grow up”.

[Sara]: Right. You could be more patient, but there's probably, if we dove into that, even that silly thing of frustrated over standing in line, there'd be something there.

[Sara]: There's something to that, that's why the emotion is there and so, we can hold that and value that, we can show ourselves compassion. “It's hard, I have a lot to do today, I’m stressed about it having to take this extra time sitting in line. Is going to put me behind on this other stuff” and I’m just making up this scenario, but there's something to that. So, we want to take the emotion and hold it with compassion and empathy and say “this is where they're at, let's find out”. There's that face value of what is happening, but there's something below that and I want to value that, I want to value the emotion. The emotion is there for a reason, it's our body.

[Kyle]: It's telling us something, yeah.

[Sara]: Totally, yeah. Yes, it's telling us it's a chance when my child has that big emotion, it is that chance for me to move in, connect with them, teach regulation, because I want to know that even as a grown-up. When I’m feeling stressed, when I’m devastated over a large loss, what do I do with this emotion? Because it can hang us up, it can affect our health, it can affect our-- We all know this, we know how much emotion stored in our bodies, it doesn't help us. We want to be able to feel the emotion, we want to flow, let the emotion flow through, it should pass. Healthy emotion would be-- You feel it, it tells you something. You move through it and it goes on, it doesn't get hung up in us and that's what I want for my children, that's what I want for myself.

[Kyle]: So, what you're saying is it's a valuable skill, just like brushing your teeth, learning how to sleep, right? Learning how to use the restroom, these are skills that we feel like we've got to help teach our kids and that was really eye-opening to me is, I have to teach my kids this, and how do I teach it? First, by modeling it. I first have got to practice it myself, I’ve got to see the emotion not as bad, but as, just to be curious about it like, why is it there? You know? Even on our good days, in our marriage, if you're frustrated or upset, I’m curious, I’m just thinking “what's going on?” and typically-- Well, every time there's a reason, typically, it's a reason that totally makes sense and then, typically I can say “hey, let me help you with that” or “can I support you on that?” or just through talking it out, it totally helps you, right? And same with me as well and so, to come at it that emotional regulation, is not something the kid is born able to do.

[Kyle]: Now, as their prefrontal cortex comes online, they're more capable of doing it, but it's still a skill that needs to be modeled and then taught.

[Sara]: Yeah, that prefrontal cortex comes online for you to be able to learn it, it's not like “oh, I’ve matured and I just naturally am going to be able to do this”. Even though you're physically capable of walking, you have to learn it, your brain has to learn how to move your legs and so, balance and all of that. Same with emotional regulation, your brain may be able to learn it, but you could have a 50-year-old who's never learned emotional regulation.

[Kyle]: I’ve seen that.

[Sara]: Yes, we've all actually been there probably, where we weren't regulating ourselves [Laughter]

[Kyle]: [Laughter] Yeah. I’m not there yet, but I probably will be.

[Sara]: But we want-- But it's a skill we all want to learn and then, we want to teach our children and, of course, our children are going to learn by watching us.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and watching us how we do it together, even as a couple, right? When we start escalating. I’m thinking of a few key ways-- Well, one, I want to hit this idea first that Dr. Markham, when she was teaching me to become a peaceful parenting coach is, I’d never heard this before about how most parenting models that we've grown up in or been taught, are more behavior-based and so, the focus is to just change the behavior. So, when I see the kids screaming or crying or throwing a tantrum or whatever it is, the different tactics, whether it's like a time-out, whether it's a spanking or these kind of-- These are all behavior-based approaches to stop the behavior, okay? But it doesn't help speak to the feeling, the emotion, that first instigated the behavior, you know? And so, Markham talked about how in the history of parenting, you have these behavior-based approaches and then you've got these emotion-based approaches, that are more about parenting from the inside out like, seeing the emotion not as something to stop, but as something to help them regulate and then, once you do that, just like in a marriage, if you help me if I’m upset and you empathize with me, you use that as a skill and then, the anger dissipates because I feel connected with you. Because like you're saying, in the brain when I’m in that amygdala, the limbic system area, I want connection, I feel alone, I feel like nobody understands why I’m so upset and when you connect with me, just like we do with our kids, it helps the feeling pass through, so then they can actually shift and then the behavior will be better as a result.

[Sara]: Sort of a-- To me a funny way of saying it, a simple way of saying it is, “there's cookies sitting on the table” and I’ve set up, my kids don't know it, but if they reach for that cookie, they're going to get zapped and so, there's that external force stopping them from taking a cookie.

[Sara]: So, they've got this “I want a cookie, but then I’m going to get zapped. So, I don't get the cookie because I’m going to get zapped if I do” or there's this, I have taught them to manage and regulate that “I want the cookie”, so something inside of them is deciding not to reach for the cookie now, because of something inside of them, not this external force. So, that's where the punishment is that external force, but we want to cultivate and build something inside of them that can look at that and regulate and have patience and manage the desire for the cookie, versus just being controlled not to get the cookie.

[Kyle]: Well, I love that example because there are some kids that we've helped that, if there was a donut sitting out, they would just take it, it was almost like they had no ability to look at the donut, stop and think “I want that donut, I feel excited about that donut, but is this the right time to have the donut? Is this an appropriate time to have it if I had enough donuts already”, right? They actually have that thought process, that's called self-control and studies will show that that's a sign of a successful kid, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah, when they grow up, it shows that can predict.

[Kyle]: Yes, it's a better predictor of a kid being able to be successful, going back to the famous marshmallow experiment and all those kinds of things. Where the kids able to not have the one marshmallow and able to wait for the second, you know? Some kids couldn't wait at all, they just stuffed it in their mouth, you know? But the ability to wait and so, one of the ways I liked helping as you're talking about and the cookie one brought to my mind was, one way I like helping connect with the kids, is just a fun skill of when the kid wanted a cookie and I said “no, we've had enough cookies”. Is then to be able to just imagine with them, “what it'd be like to be able to have as many cookies if we wanted?” And so, they may say “I want another cookie” and they start to throw a tantrum, instead of saying, which I may have in the past said, “I’m tired of telling you this, why do you let sugar control?”, you know? I might give him a whole lecture, I might have like, give him a tongue lashing or try to shame them into not asking for the cookie.

[Kyle]: But I found was more fun, was just to admit “those cookies were good, I really like those cookies too, how many cookies would you have if I let you have all those cookies?” and the kid would typically say “I’d have like 10” and I’d be like “10? I wouldn't stop at 10, those were great!”, you know? And so, just what I found almost every time I did that, the kid felt like “I got it, I connected”, then I was able to because I was regulating my emotions, able then to give them that gift, you know? Give them the gift of regulation and then the kid could feel what that feels like, to want the cookie, but not have to have the cookie now.

[Sara]: Yeah. There was also a similar experience. We can go through things that are really hard, I could be really sad, really mad, really whatever it is and if somebody's with me going through it, it's going to help so much and it'll help me handle it, it'll help me get through it, it'll help me-- You know, and so, there's this ice test.

[Sara]: And I don't remember-- Do you remember who it was? I don't remember who it was, you'd have to look it up, but--

[Kyle]: I think it was in the book called “Why bad things happen to good people?”.

[Sara]: But you-- So, one person is in ice and so, they show that if somebody is sitting-- They're in the ice too, they can last longer than if they're alone in the ice.

[Kyle]: Almost double.

[Sara]: So, that's just such a clear picture of when we were going through the big emotions with our child and it wasn't-- The person wasn't sitting there going “oh, the ice is warm, you didn't stop whining about it?”, you know, they were just with them in the discomfort. Just be with your child in the discomfort and they will get through it and so, it's similar to you just saying “oh, I want the cookie too, the cookies are so great! Let's have 20 cookies! I wish we could have 20 cookies!”. That's just sitting in the ice with them and so, I love that example of-- There's a children's book called “The listening rabbit”, I think.

[Kyle]: Oh, yes, I think you're right. Yes.

[Sara]: And it's a great book, if you have a chance to pick it up, maybe read it, get it from the library or something, but it's about a rabbit, a boy is upset because the blocks fell down and it goes through the different animals and just shows, it's a great example, great picture book for you and your child to see what it's like to sit with someone who has big emotions.

[Sara]: And help them move through the emotion and through that, they're regulating.

[Kyle]: I think what's cool about as you're saying that is, one, I realized I wasn't comfortable with my own negative emotions like, I was okay with anger, but I really wasn't comfortable being scared, you know? I really wasn't comfortable being sad, you know? Those kinds of things kind of bothered me, you know’ Made me feel weak and helpless and I didn't like it and I think that's why I didn't like it in our kids. When I saw them scared, weak and helpless, it was kind of gross [Laughter] I didn't feel unfortunately compassion, I wanted it to go away, I wanted my kids to be strong, you know? Able to take care of themselves, you know, this kind of stuff and I think, kind of because I want to feel that within myself, right? And so, when I see the weakness in them, it reminds me of the weakness in me, that we do actually need each other, you know? That we're not meant to just be on our own, just independent people who just take care of-- We actually need each other to help each other and that neediness can be kind of scary, you know? Because being alone is a scary thing, you know?

[Kyle]: And so, I remember and being okay with that, with the kids, actually helped me be okay with that in me or more okay to where when I did feel afraid or hurt or scared. I could say that and I could say “hey, I need some help”, you know? In the same way the kids were-- They were not ashamed to say they needed help [ Laughter] When they felt those things and that's beautiful, it's cool that they reached out to you or me.

[Sara]: Actually, they're born that way, I mean, we see that with babies, they cry. They cry when they're hungry and they cry when they're tired, they cry when they're scared, but they also just cry when they're bored, they cry when they just need you to hold them. They just don't want to be alone and we think “I’ve got to teach this baby to be independent, they need to self-soothe, they need to be able to have a lone play time” and we get so focused and worried that they're not going to grow up to be functioning, you know, grown-up adults, that we think we have to really force this on them, but the funny thing is they're seeing that, if you co-regulate with your baby, they will learn regulation faster.

[Sara]: If your four-year-old is screaming and crying and upset, if you're with them and breathing and holding them, they will learn that skill by watching you. They co-regulate with them and they will learn emotional regulation and they will not be throwing tantrums at 30, because they learned it at this young age of “I can hold this emotion, I can feel the emotion, it's not going to be too much. I will survive it; I will get through it. I can be sad, I can breathe and then, I can move on”.

[Kyle]: Well, that reminds me of that idea, of these conflicts. Let's call this like, these big emotions create a conflict with us and our kid and it's an opportunity, that's what I keep hearing you say, it's an opportunity for us to either grow closer together, become more intimate with our kids or send them off and isolate from them, you know? And to where then they are basically given the message, it's your job to figure this out on your own, as opposed to “let me help you with this, let me model”, right? And really once we embrace that idea, these moments of emotion, I can see it, I can see when I’m isolating from them, when I’m kind of like “I don't want to--”

[Sara]: You fall back.

[Kyle]: Yeah, I can feel myself pull away from it and be like-- And then I’m more harsh, I’m more impatient, I’m more annoyed, but when I move in, that's actually going back to connection, which you talked about the previous episode. That's where the deep, deep, connection happens, is in these moments, you know? We actually get to-- So many times the best techniques we've come up with, that's helped each of them individually, has happened because we've been there with them, you know? We found out that maybe what worked for Abby, didn't work for Brennan. What worked for Brennan, didn't work for Ellie. Some worked across the board and they were all great. So, whether it was from deep breathing-- I remember when Abby hated deep breathing, I mean, would not-- Abby would not do it. Brennan liked it, right?

[Kyle]: I remember we used the self-control board from conscious discipline, Dr. Becky Bailey has this board. We had a safe place and Abby hated that too, but Brennan sometimes would say “Abby, come do this with me” and invite her into that and as a brother and sister, they would be helping regulate each other, it was really cool or you come up with ideas of just like, “hey, did that help you calm down quicker or was that was that kind of hurtful to you, getting regulated?” and just using that kind of language, you can talk to kids that way.

[Sara]: Little kids, yeah.

[Kyle]: They wanted, yeah. It's not your job to regulate them, it is our job to help them regulate and then give that skill to them, so then by the time they're teenagers, when their emotions are getting big again, they have a whole tool belt full of tools, where they know how to regulate. I know for Abby we figured out that drawing was hers, you know? She really enjoyed art and drawing, it was really-- That's not something Brennan’s ever done, you know? Brennan’s have really gone to drawing, but Abby would express herself in those times with art and then show us her feelings through the art. I remember one night even, she was really too excited, her excitement was really big because she was going to do something fun the next day and I asked her. She woke up in middle night, I’ve got a dry erase board and she drew what she was excited about and that helped her rest and that was something I never would have thought of. I would have saw that as like “you need to go to bed! We're going to be so tired tomorrow!” and I would have gotten really upset, but instead of just accepting the emotion, finding a way for her or him to express it, then help to calm it down and regulate.

[Sara]: Yeah, I think we have to remember that we will have emotions and especially there's certain ages we haven't touched on this, but your brain is gonna have a lot going on. When you're up to five years old, you'll see this little calm down, there won't be quite as many emotions a lot of times in elementary years, but you have the teenage years and it's going to burst out again, because of all the things the brain is doing and we have to give grace to that, these kids have-- Their brains are doing things that they don't have any-- It's wiring, it's pruning and that can bring a lot of emotion with it. So, we have to remember “this is where they're at developmentally”. We've already touched on it's as humans, we all feel all these big emotions and by sending our kid off, “you're mad, go be by--”, you know, “you need to go until you're not mad”.

[Sara]: Or “you're really sad, let's just close that up and pack that sadness away”, those things aren't-- We're finding not as effective. There are times I just need a moment to calm myself down, so I’m not saying that distance is always a bad thing. If a kid says “I just-- Give me a minute, I need to go”. Great, okay, let me support that, you know?

[Sara]: But we have to remember that sometimes the first move is to move in, move into the relationship. I remember Abby would be really, really mad and I would do time with her when she was really mad and she would let me hold her and I would just hold her and she'd be really mad and crying and upset that she couldn't have something she wanted, you know? This is two, three, four, that's the age I’m talking about in this case, but she would by feeling my calm and I’d even say it to her, you know, “I am calm, I love you” and she got to a point where she says “mom, I need your calm”.

[Sara]: And she would come to me and want me just to hug her, so she could just sort of suck that calmness from me [Laughter], you know?

[Sara]: Just pull it out and we can offer that to our children, we can come to them. If I can regulate, now that I always do it perfect, sometimes I’m upset too, but if I’m regulated, I can lend them, I can give that to them, they can pull it from me to help regulate themselves.

[Kyle]: I think in later episodes we'll do some specific stuff even more; you know? Because I’m thinking of, it was really cool one time when Abby and I got into a discussion, I was getting upset with her about something and Abby was able to say to me at like five, “dad, you getting mad isn't helping me. I need to calm down, help me calm down” and I was like, “well, this is kind of cool, this is unique” and in the moment, I wasn't even thinking about it, I just wanted her to stop doing whatever she was doing, but she was able to articulate to me that her emotions were getting too big and she was losing control of herself and she needed me to maintain self-control, to then give it to her, it was awesome! So, I would encourage all the people listening to start having that conversation with your kids today, about using words like emotional regulation, just like you would brushing your teeth, just like you would going to the restroom. it's a skill that they're going to need, especially in this anxious kind of time we live in, where so many kids I’m seeing are dealing with high, high levels of anxiety and they don't know what to do with those feelings.

[Sara]: How do we feel it, not just, how do we feel it and then move through.

[Kyle]: That's great, yeah. So, I want to encourage all the listeners to please do everything you can. If you like what you're hearing, if it's helpful, to please review it, you know, please give us five stars if you'd like to, that'd be amazing and then comment on it, share it, all those ways in which it helps our podcast get up to where it's more seen and can help more families and I also want to point you to our website, www.parentinglegacy.com, where you can find some courses that we have there online, where you can purchase and dive into this stuff even more for your family or you and your spouse can work on some things together.