How to help your children
move from codependence
November 14, 2022
[Kyle]: In today's podcast we're going to talk about something really common in families, really common in parents and kids. We're going to talk about moving from codependence to independence. I think it's such a big step that we hope to equip you to do better.
[Kyle]: Hello, and welcome to episode 55 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.
[Sara]: And I’m Sara.
[Kyle]: And man, what a beautiful fall day, right?
[Sara]: It is, it's beautiful. It's perfect, the temperature's perfect, the color is gorgeous.
[Kyle]: We really enjoy the fall.
[Sara]: Yes, we do.
[Kyle]: Some of our favorite time of the year. So, this morning we took a nice fall walk before we recorded this podcast and today's topic, we really want to discuss the difference between codependency, independence and interdependence. Now, I know that's a lot to cover and we don't want to spend all day on this. I don't know if we'll necessarily get to the depth of what interdependence means within a family, but I definitely want us to hit upon codependence and independence.
[Sara]: Yeah, I feel like this is just going to be touching on it, just a little bit of information about it. It will not be able to go as-- It will not be able to cover it fully.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and before we get there, I want to remind everybody we love your feedback, love your comments. Several of these topics that we're using have come up just in discussions with other parents and lately, Sara and I’ve been able to do a lot of speaking. So, we've been able to go to some church, got some schools on the agenda in the future to talk with teachers. But if you have any speaking opportunities, we're not just talking on Tulsa either, like speaking opportunities throughout the country, throughout the world. We could do it through video, we could do it through webinars and those kinds of things. So, if you have ideas, shoot them our way and we're open to almost anything, because we want to get the word out about this podcast.
[Kyle]: So, feel free to go to our website at parentinglegacy.com and when you go there, you can email us any of these ideas. Also, you'll see all the other content we have, from courses that we offer. We've got courses on teenagers and stuff like that, but you can also reach out to us if you need specific coaching on these areas. So, enough of that. So, I want to move into, Sara, explain to me first of all, maybe how would you define codependence, because I think that's something we hear a lot in our culture, you know? I think a lot of people especially, you know, teenagers or married couples. I’ll have couples sometimes come in and they'll talk about, you know, being in a codependent relationship or they know they struggle with codependency. So, what would you say that is?
[Sara]: All right, I’m gonna actually say a couple qualities, I would say, of codependency.
[Kyle]: Okey. Characteristics maybe?
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, of-- A codependent relationship it's, you're kind of-- You notice this about yourself, that you might feel what they feel and you don't feel like yourself. It's almost you step into, you put yourself down and you're stepping into their space and how they feel and how they are in a moment. You're very focused on that, almost to diminishing yourself.
[Sara]: You will shift based on that other person's perception. So, what they think is truth and you'll move into whatever space they think, based on how they're viewing the moment.
[Sara]: That it's also a space where it's very hard to set limits or boundaries. Any limits that you feel you want to put or boundaries you want to have, you feel guilty about or feel like you shouldn't have those and then, you feel like you're walking on eggshells. You're always trying to please them, keep them happy, that hyper-focus on the other person.
[Kyle]: Yeah. I would say when we're dealing with families, that last one, can you read that one again? Because I think that's the one as soon as I hear that in a session, I’m thinking “okay, we're dealing with codependency”.
[Sara]: The walking on eggshells?
[Sara]: Yeah, where it's just however they are in the moment, you're trying to-- You're walking on eggshells trying to make sure they're happy and they're okay and “I want to be very, very careful”, that hyper focus.
[Kyle]: Well, and the parent will literally say that, the parent will say “I’m just so tired of walking on eggshells, I feel like we're always walking on eggshells”.
[Sara]: “I’m gonna set them off--”
[Kyle]: Yes, because they're going to blow up real big, so everybody's walking on eggshells.
[Sara]: If I say “no”, they're going to blow up and it's just not going to be worth it.
[Kyle]: Yes. I actually just got a phone call with somebody the other day, someone seeking help over the phone and that's exactly what they were saying and that's a key sign that we're moving into codependency. Now, I want to say codependency is a natural first step in any of these types of relationships, it's a natural first step when it comes to being a kid. Like, a little baby is naturally codependent, right?
[Sara]: It's almost even hard to use that word, because it is different, right? Because codependency we think “oh--” It's that “I can't have any boundaries or limits” or “and I gotta be careful about you and I’m just lost in who you are and what you're feeling”. Where with a baby, they do need that, right? It's almost a codependency, is “I absolutely need you; I am desperate for you, I need you to help me with all my emotions”. So, we step in as a parent to do that, but it has a little bit different take on it.
[Kyle]: It does, but I would say-- I use that word and I think it is appropriate to describe it, because literally, at the age our kids are, at 12 almost 13 years old, 10 and 6, you specifically can see it with our six-year-old, right? Like if I come in and I’m feeling a big feeling, that six-year-old has very little ability to set a boundary on that feeling, you know? She's going to be impacted by that feeling and right then, my fears are going to become her fears, my worries are gonna become her worries. Like, whereas like--
[Sara]: We're very in tune and babies are even, and you're saying a six-year-old, but yeah, you're very-- That's very true how much they're more in tune with our feelings than we realize they are, that we give them credit.
[Kyle]: Well, that's it, they even don't have the capacity or the skills to not let that thing affect them, you know? And you can see it. I remember growing up and being about 12, 13 and about that age like where Abby is, you can start differentiating yourself from those feelings. So, even though I might be mad or I might feel a certain thing, Abby I think has the ability to say “I don't want to feel that. I don't need to feel that. That feeling is Dad's, it's not mine” and I can hear that in a healthy kid growing up through those teenage years, where they're moving to that next stage of independence. Where they're starting to say-- And I’ll try to like, encourage these teenagers like, “I know this is hard, but really that feeling the parent has is theirs, it doesn't have to become yours”.
[Sara]: I think it-- I think that does highlight that, it's also-- The parent has a big say in that too. Because if you're saying “it is your fault that I feel this way” as the parent, then the kids going to get the message “oh, I’m in charge of your feelings and I need to make sure your feelings are all okay”.
[Sara]: But if you give your child permission, you're even saying to them “look, this is where I’m at, this is what I’m feeling. It's me, not you. You're not responsible for my happiness”. Then that releases the child from that learning how to be codependent in all relationships.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and I know, Sara, we've covered this before in previous podcasts about language, right? And so, that's some of the codependent language you'd be watching out for in yourself, “am I saying my kid makes me feel these things?”. Like, “you make me so mad when you--”, that's codependent language. It's saying “I cannot choose to feel anything else other than this, because you're making me”. The “have to” language, “I have to make you do your homework”, you know? “I have to make you do--". So, all of that's not very freeing, it's not independent language, it's codependent language. So, if I’m hearing the eggshells, if I’m hearing a lot of “makes me” language, then I feel like this relationship is in a codependent cycle.
[Sara]: You're in charge-- One person is in charge of the other person's well-being, emotional feelings, all of that.
[Kyle]: And I would say even with little kids. Yeah, I would say even with our six-year-old. If our six-year-old was using that language, I would try to as early as possible, to try to change that language. That I know it feels that I made you feel that way, but I actually didn't and I want-- And I’m saying that not to deny the reality that I impacted her in a strong way and it almost seemed impossible for her to feel anything else. It may even been almost that way, but I want her to know from an early age, that you can at some point have the capacity to choose to differentiate from my feelings, you know? And I think even some of the techniques I did early on that was really helpful, was when I was mad at the kids or I did yell at them and later on, followed up with them. I would not only apologize, but I would ask them “was that anger about you or about me?” and they eventually threw several moments-- Several trainings of this, would say “it was about you, Dad”. “Exactly, my anger is always about me, it's not about you”. So, then I could try to help them be independent of my feelings.
[Sara]: Yeah, and I think the opposite of that, where you’re not taking ownership of your child’s feelings. Where you can allow them to be disappointed or sad or mad, you don't need to rescue them from those feelings, but instead show empathy.
[Sara]: So, that difference between coming in and codependency and thinking “I’ve got to rescue my child from this great disappointment or this upset feeling”, versus coming in with empathy and “I’m gonna be with you. I’m going to hold you and hug you and love you through this whole hard time that you're going through. You're not alone, I’m with you, but I’m not going to take ownership of those feelings”.
[Kyle]: That's fantastic, Sara, because that describes, I think, what's necessary to move into independence and one of the reasons why I was inspired to kind of like, do this podcast. I think many of the listeners can relate to this is, a big value we have specifically in America is independence, right? And so, what I see with a lot of parents we talk to, from a very early age like, I’m talking like two months, three months old, the parent can't wait till the kid is independent of them, you know? And what I mean by can't wait, is they're constantly seeing that as success.
[Sara]: Yeah, that's a-- I think there's a big-- That pressure that you mentioned. Even if you rather you can wait or want it or none of that matters, it's “I’m a successful parent now, my child's going to be successful because look at all the things they can do by themselves”.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and you're judging success by that. Like, as soon as-- It's like-- Some people-- I remember our kids never walked, what? Until about 14 months?
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, about 13 months.
[Kyle]: And we saw some other parents that their kids are walking like, six or seven months and we we're like “what is happening!?”, right? And then-- Or our kids always like, we're always working really hard with sleep and trying to figure out-- And other parents would be like “yeah, our kid was sleeping on their own by this time, you know?” and there was all this talk of like “oh--", when the kid finally became self-sufficient, you know? When the kids became self-reliant, it was like--
[Sara]: We really celebrate those moments of “oh, they're doing it on their own” and there is a celebration to it, not to say there isn't, but we hold that in such high esteem as if the other is a problem.
[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, you look at one parent, who the kid is clinging to the parent as they're dropping them off for school and the other one with a kid just says “see ya” and they're like “that parents being successful”, because that kid just said “adios!” and took off, as opposed to the kid who's clinging, they're like “what's wrong with that kid?”. Instead of realizing “whoa, that may be great the kid is just waving goodbye, but that also may be a lack of connection too” and maybe the kids like “I’d rather be at school than home”, right? So, we never know what's going on, but I think in our culture in particular, we value that more than the kid clinging, right? Because as soon as we see the kid clinging, we think “that's codependency”.
[Kyle]: Like that-- If that parent's coming to school with the kid, helping the kid in the classroom like, “when is that Mom gonna let go and cut the umbilical cord?” or “when is that Dad gonna finally tell that kid he can do it without him”, you know? And these kinds of thoughts.
[Sara]: Even if the parent wants to give that extra hug or something, I think there's even pressure on the parent “you just need to drop and run, what's wrong with you?”, you know? And “why are you so clingy?”.
[Kyle]: Well, and so, I’ve heard that a lot lately at the office, honey, and also just in parents we've been talking to, is this tension. So, I wanted to spend time, because I do this a lot of times with parents, where we kind of break it down and kind of just put a word to it, okay? So, that codependency is normal. So, a kid at the young age is going to be dependent on you for eating, you know? Lots of times to help them sleep, to help them learn how to like, go to the bathroom and there's a lot of things they need. To even walk and they need you to hold their hand. They need you next to the stairs when they're going up and down at multiple times, because they might fall down and hurt themselves, right? So, there's so many ways they literally are dependent on you for these things, right? And, of course, yes, the next stage is independence. You want your kid to be able to move that way, but I heard what you were describing was something different, is-- It isn't the ability for the kid to be independent. We aren't birds, it isn't to just drop them out of the nests and go “fly, baby!”, you know? It isn't-- We are not birds, humans are different and so, it isn't the goal, isn't just push them away and say “let's see if they survive”, you know? It isn't-- There is a way to actually equip your kids to eventually then feel competent enough, to then go do that activity on their own and succeed at it.
[Sara]: Yeah, actually and I think there's a lot more interest in this area and studying in this area, because we have a lot of-- Especially historically, a lot of “go on your own”, you know? And they're studying now and they're finding more and more how when you walk with your child through these moments when they're really, really little, they do naturally when they feel safe, secure and ready, they naturally have this urge and this desire to go out into the world and to go make the-- You know, be themselves in the world.
[Sara]: We don't actually-- We feel this need to shove them, but we're learning we don't need to shove them, they'll do it and it'll look different. One kid's personality, they'll do it at one moment and another child will do it at a different moment and one's not better than the other. But you can actually just walk with your child and they will naturally go off and go out.
[Kyle]: Yeah, so good. Well, and we've noticed that at times too, you know? Like I said, even with the stairs, you know? Stuff like that. Sometimes they don't know the danger they're in and every time, I’m sure listeners can, you know, also connect with this. Every time our kids saw stairs for the first time, they wanted to climb those stairs and they had no idea how dangerous it was to go up those stairs and possibly fall down and we did, so we stayed close by and it was kind of fun to just watch them go try to be independent, you know? And they wanted, they wanted to go up and down the stairs, they actually didn't want us to hold their hand the whole time, you know? Even though we'd be like “can I hold your hand, please? Let me hold your hand on this because that's pretty dangerous” and so, there's all these moments if you're watching for it, if you have this overarching understanding that kids, when they feel safe and loved, they will naturally want to explore and become self-sufficient. In the sense of being able-- Or feel competent to go do that activity.
[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, they're really excited.
[Kyle]: Yeah, they naturally want to do that, but it's when they don't feel safe and loved that they may be reckless and just run, because they feel like they just-- Just go try-- Or they'll cling too much and never want to try, right? So, you're really wanting this healthy balance and so, I bring this up, because I think lots of times, we're thinking of this in regards to like, elementary age. But Sara, I see this into teenage years and what I mean by that, is I’ll hear parents say like “he won't read unless I make him”, you know? “She won't clean up her room unless I yell at her”, right? And these are kids who are 15, 16, 17 and all of that is codependent thinking too and so, I feel this tension where they're so mad at the kid for not cleaning the room on their own. They're so mad at the kid for not just taking care of their schoolwork. Yet, a cycle of fear has perpetuated the codependency. When I talk to the kid, the kid believes they won't clean their room without the parent getting mad at them. The kid believes they would never do their schoolwork without the parent being mad at them and so, when I’m trying to help parents move away from that, it's first shining a light on “this is never going to lead to independence”. As long as I am taking responsibility for their schoolwork, for their room, then they will never need to take responsibility for that and that is what independent people do, they take responsibility for their action.
[Sara]: Well, that's what codependence is, “I’m responsible for you, how you feel, what you do, how your life is going”. And you can see it both ways, you can see actually teenagers who feel very responsible for their parents.
[Kyle]: That’s good, yes, sure.
[Sara]: And how their parents feel or what their parents are-- How well their parents are doing. But you see the reverse of that and that's-- Sort of that alarm bell should go off “oh, am I responsible for their-- Everything they're doing? Are they responsible for me and my happiness?” and we need to sort of wake up and go “oh, we might need to look at our relationship dynamics here and how we're-- What roles we're playing”.
[Kyle]: Yeah, that's really good. Well, I love how you brought up too that might flip the other way, where kids a lot of times do feel responsible for their parents and so, they won't-- Even like they'd be afraid to be honest about something, because they're afraid the parent will get upset about it, you know? Or you know, be mad or be sad about it. So, then the parent will want honesty, but the kid won't share it, because they don't know how the parent's going to react and it's as if, they're controlling how the parent is feeling, you know?
[Sara]: Yeah, “I have to keep my parents’ well-being in mind all the time”.
[Kyle]: Yeah. So, I would encourage every listener to just take a moment and think about all those areas, no matter how old your kid is, what are those areas where you feel like you have to take responsibility for their actions? You know? Like, I’ll give a quick example, like even today when we were taking the walk, you know, I got kind of frustrated because the kids were biking and they-- I had this expectation that you and I were just going to walk and talk and they were just gonna go bike, you know? And when you and I were kids, we would just go bike and we would just go bike around the block and they'd just ride around. But lately, it's been really hot and it's been not-- The kids have been out biking for quite some time and you pointed that out, but I was frustrated that the kids kept coming back and interrupting our conversation.
[Kyle]: I was trying to talk about the podcast and what we're going to talk about and I started getting upset and I was like “just go bike, get away!”. Like I was doing exactly what we're talking about, I’m like taking responsibility for them to say “go bike the way I expected you to bike”, you know? And you were bringing up “we haven't really told them that's the expectation, you know? They haven't really had a chance to just go explore the neighborhood on their bikes, because Ellie’s 6 and Brandon's 10 and they've been pretty close to us most of the time we've been biking” and now I’m like “just go, go, go!”. So, in order to do that, I would need to create-- Like, support them in a way, to then go feel free to understand what that looks like, right? Like, we had a vision of, it meant “go down really far and then come back to us. Go down and come back to us”, but they kept like, stopping almost every house and then waiting for us and going again and we're like “that's not what we expected!”, you know? But that's a symbol of where I was taking responsibility, I was being somewhat codependent and almost creating a codependent thing there like, “if you don't want me to get mad, go bike the way I want to bike”, right?
[Kyle]: Instead of really teaching them how to be independent on the bike, I’m teaching them how to be codependent on the bike.
[Kyle]: Yes. So, I would encourage you to be thinking about those spaces. It could be homework, it could be cleaning, it could be chores, all those areas where you're thinking “they wouldn't do it unless I did da, da, da, da”, that's probably a cycle of codependency or it also is, if you think you're walking on eggshells because you're so afraid of their emotions, whether in your marriage or in the parenting, that's also a sign of codependency. It doesn't mean the entire relationship's codependent, but in those moments, there is a pattern of codependence.
[Kyle]: So, I guess just do the time, Sara. I want to talk about, what does independence look like? So, if that is the next healthy stage, how would you know if your kids moving into the independence? Is just because they never need you? They never ask for help? They do everything on their own? Is that the goal? To where we walk in the house and they're just like, walking around, we never talk because they're all like “we're just independent people”?
[Sara]: No, I think everyone knows that's not the goal. I don't know, I think it is. No, it's actually where we feel capable and we also are very accepting of when we need someone else. Because we all need other people. And so, I can say “oh, I want to go try this, I’m going to go do this. Oh, I can't do this part. I know I can go get help, this person's gonna come alongside me”.
[Sara]: “They're not going to take me over in what I’m doing or take over the situation, they're going to come alongside me” and as a parent, I’m talking, you know, parent-child relationship and help guide me in this moment, but not consume the moment.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. Well, and so, I would say we define codependence kind of taking responsibility for other. Independence would be taking responsibility for yourself. So, an independent kid, it doesn't mean you never remind them to go clean their room, it just means when you do, they say “oh yeah, I’ll get on that, I’ll go take care of that”, you know? Obviously it would be great if they cleaned it on their own and took initiative, you know? That would be a symbol--
[Sara]: They’ll get there.
[Kyle]: Yeah, they'll get there, but it's not “they're not doing it because I was mad at them. They're not doing at it because I threaten them”, right? Of course, independence can look and would be great if they saw the dishes needed to be cleaned and they just walked over and cleaned them. That would be fantastic, but it also made look like “hey, you said you we're going to take care of those dishes” and they say “that's right, I did. I’ll get on those in an hour”, right?
[Kyle]: That's also an independent person. So, it doesn't have to look, like they're just constantly doing everything that they know they are responsible for, without ever being reminded, right?
[Sara]: That would be a-- Yeah, that's a grown adult and so, sure, you're still the parent--
[Kyle]: Even grown adults though, need to be reminded sometimes, right?
[Kyle]: That's right.
[Sara]: Yeah, that's true. That's why we have phones that go “Beep! Beep! Don’t forget to do this!”.
[Kyle]: That's right! I know! But even-- But Sara, you're saying that, but even like, if I have a teenager in my office and they're trying to like, instead-- We're moving away from their parent reminding them to do their homework, so we'll brainstorm “how could you do that?” and the kid might say “I guess I could use my phone instead of--” That would be fantastic, right? That's a very independent decision and now, that kid is taking responsibility for doing that. But what the kid had done, he was just doing the dance that had always been going on in his family, which is “I didn't take it serious until mom and dad got mad about it”. We’ll then be like “yeah, how about we grow up a little bit? How about we take responsibility for it?”. That's a part of you no longer being a child and you moving into adulthood, is you saying “what is mine to do? And what can I--? How can I make sure I’m able to do that effectively?”, you know?
[Sara]: And I think it is very important to highlight too, it's a-- That's on kind of the external, right? But it's also that internal. “This is how I feel about a moment, this is how you feel about a moment. We could feel different or same, but you own your feelings and I own my feelings”.
[Sara]: Because I think a big part of that codependency is that eggshell, those owning the other person's feelings and well-being too.
[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and I think it's-- As you're saying that, I’m thinking of all the teenagers too who were in codependent cycles with their family and then they get into dating relationships and they end up mirroring those same kind of things, right? So, that's a big point of emphasis of “your girlfriend or boyfriend's feelings aren't yours, neither are your parents”, right? So--
[Sara]: Yeah, you're not trying to keep everyone happy here.
[Kyle]: Well, and the reason why independence is so important, in getting a chance to really teach them how to do that before they leave your house by 18, is with independence comes confidence, you know? That they're tied together. This idea that “I have what it takes”, comes with that. Like, “I know how-- Not to do everything on my own, but even if I needed help, I could go ask for it”, you know? And that's what an independent person can do and that's eventually setting the stage to move into interdependence, right? And it's also an independent person, kind of knows their limitations, you know? They know their strengths, they know what they're good at and they know what they struggle at, right? And they're able to be honest about those things, right? And so, all those things are important, but if I’m as a parent feeling the need to constantly do it for them or make them do it, they don't ever learn that, they don't really know what are-- How do they motivate themselves, you know?
[Kyle]: I think a lot of codependent kids trying to get into-- They don't know how to be self-motivated, self-disciplined, because they expect someone else to always do it for them. Either it's the coach or it's the parent or the teacher and so, I was even thinking like a good picture of independence would be-- Our kids play soccer. So, a codependent relationship would be like, me yelling from the sideline to do this, this, this or a coach doing that. A coach saying “Do this! Do this!” and then the kid only does it when they're being yelled at, you know?
[Kyle]: An independent kid, the coach could just give instructions or the parent on the sideline and then the kid can go out there and the kid does it, you know? And that's actually where you want the kid to go do it, to where the kid isn't constantly-- I’m remember my dad said something very profound one time when Abby was playing soccer and she came running over it, it was a quick throw in and I was like “Abby! Grab it! Throw it! Throw it! Throw it!” and then she did and then my dad just said “you know, there's going to be a point where she's going to need to think for herself” and I said “yeah, that's actually what I want, because I just undermined that goal by doing that”. So, even though I successfully “got her to throw it fast”, she's not gonna remember to do that next time unless I say that, you know?
[Kyle]: Because she never thought of that herself, right? So, she's gonna think “when I come to the sideline, dad's gonna tell me what to do”, you know? And so, that-- I think that's a real good picture of we want to move away from that when it comes to school, when it comes to friendships, when it comes to, you know, responsibilities at home, because you want the kid to feel capable to do those things. But you're not-- It's not “go do it on your own, figure it out, I’m mad at you that you didn't”, it's instead to say “hey, how can I help equip you to be successful in that?”.
[Sara]: Yes, yeah, yeah, I like that. “Let me help equip you, let's make sure you have the tools” and then also, if I’m not going to take responsibility, I’m not going to enter that codependent, I have to also be okay with that it's not going to all be perfect.
[Sara]: And that's okay, it's okay that's not going to be perfect. There's life lessons in it not being perfect and also, for them to realize “oh, okay, I messed that up. What can I do different? I can learn how to solve this problem; I can take ownership of it”. There's so many wonderful pieces of actually letting them sort of struggle through it with you there, but letting them kind of figure those things out, because we all have to do that.
[Kyle]: I love it and so, let's wrap up with that. We didn't get to interdependence and I think what you just said is so cool. When you see the kid do that, like when you finally there is like, “We're doing-- I’m doing it for you, I’m doing it for you”. “Okay, now you're doing it with me, you're doing it with me” and then “you did it”, right? And there's that skill of encouragement that Dr. Becky Bailey talks about and that creates interdependence. Because then I watch you and I go “oh my gosh, look, he did it. He went up and down the stairs and he's he was able to do it capable and I wasn't scared he was going to fall down. That was cool, you know? It was really neat” or “he did it, he went over it and told that friend that he didn't like how he was talking to him and he said ‘I’d rather you do this and be this kind of friend’ and the friend and him resolved the conflict. Oh, that's so cool”, but it only happened because they saw me resolve conflicts first for them and then, I coached him outside of that time next and then they walked off and did it on their own and then I get to encourage--
[Kyle]: So, I’d love to do a whole another podcast where we just talk about how encouraging your kids-- Not pushing them away, but as they let go of your hand and go try these things on their own and they do them, they look back at you and you go “I saw that, that was awesome”.
[Kyle]: That's what creates an independent kid, who then can move into interdependence, you know? So, I love that. So, I hope-- If you're listening today, I hope this helps give you a better picture of moving away from codependence, which once again, is a natural part of the cycle into independence. That I hope we're freeing you up-- You don't need to make that happen, you don't need to kick them out of the nest and tell them to fly, you don't need to push them in the pool and tell them to swim. That instead there is a different way to lead them naturally towards independence, which they're already driven to be, they naturally want to know that they can do some of the stuff on their own, because they need to know that. Because the world is safer to them when they feel equipped to do that. So, I hope that just gives you some way to look at it and we’ll in the further podcasts, do interdependence and so, yeah, it was great talking about the subject with you, very passionate about it and I think it's a lot of families, really just need some clarification on it. So, I hope this was helpful to you today.
[Sara]: Have a great day.