Episode 16

How to parent together without judging each other

January 31, 2022

[Kyle]: I think what judgment does in simple terms is, judgment ends up-- At least what I see happening among siblings, among spouses, among parents with kids, is judgment, what you focus on you, you kind of get more of too. So, as I’m looking at what is lacking in you, it creates this huge chasm that we just can't seem to bridge.

[Kyle]: Hello and welcome to episode 16 of the Art of Raising Humans podcasts. I’m Kyle.

[Sara]: And I’m Sara, and we're going to talk about parenting and raising humans.

[Kyle]: And today we wanted to kind of piggyback off of our last podcast, that had to do with shame. Now, we're not going to keep talking about shame, felt like we really spent a lot of time on that and hopefully it was helpful to you, but today we really wanted to hit another subject, that I thought kind of just touched upon that and I know specifically in Sara's and my parenting journey, judgment has been a big barrier to us being the parents we would like to be. So, I’m kind of using this in combination with shame as, I was just thinking about, what's the barriers I see most often in myself, in us as a couple and in parents we work with, to really being able to be that dad or mom that they wish they could become? And I find judgment seems to kind of seep in there and really cause a lot of conflict and keeps people from growing the way they would like to grow.

[Kyle]: So, today, when I’m just thinking about judgment, how do you see that, Sara? How do you see judgment kind of playing out in our parenting and in other people's parenting that you've helped in the past?

[Sara]: Well, I think-- So, the core of judgment is putting ourselves in the place of the decider, right? Where we raise ourselves up and we're gonna decide right/wrong, good/bad, black and white, it keeps things very locked in and we put ourselves in just a really awful position, because really being the person who's going to decide right/wrong, black/white, all that, it's very locked down, you lose creativity and you're a sort of God of everything [Laughter]

[Kyle]: Yes, there's just one story and it's your story. There's one way and it's your way.

[Sara]: Yeah, and you lose sight of a lot of things, because you're just locked into that position. There's other stories, there's other perspectives, there's other-- There's a lot of other pieces.

[Sara]: And you have a hard time ever seeing that if you're judging.

[Kyle]: What's a great way--? So, what you're saying it's, I love how you're putting it, Sara, I didn't think of it. In that moment when you're saying, I was like “that's a great way to assess if I’m judging”, right? If I’m looking at what my kid's doing or my spouse is doing, I’m like “there's one way, there's only one way to do it” [Laughter] And you know what's fishy about that? It's my way! [Laughter] So, if my way is the only way, that's probably me judging them, right? And what you said as well, you know, what we know from talking to a lot of different marriage counselors, we have some great friends who are great marriage counselors and something they emphasize a lot in marriage counseling is “the differences are the strengths”, you know? That that's actually the beauty like, the fact that all of our kids are different is awesome, you know? It would be gross if all of us did it the exact same way.

[Kyle]: If whenever you're seeing, you know, even in a marriage or in a couple no differences, it's really lacking the creativity you talked about, that that's actually I think, we're designed not to be the same. We're designed to have these [Unintelligible] Some things that-- A lot of things that unite us and a lot of things-- But as a family, each of the kid brings a different spice, you know? Both spouses like, I’m loud, you're quiet, you know? I talk a lot, you talk less, right? [Laughter] There's so many ways you and I are different and it actually makes us a better couple. So, when judgment comes in, we lose all of that beauty, right?

[Sara]: Yeah, it's-- If you think of a team, it's real obvious on sports teams, if you had a team and you had the best player and all the rest of the players were that exact same player, you'd probably lose. You need--

[Sara]: You need the differences, you need the-- Each and every person with their strengths, but then each person with their strengths, has their weaknesses. The guy who is really, I don't know, big and strong, he can stop the tackles, not the guy who can run really fast and catch a ball.

[Kyle]: That's right.

[Sara]: And you need those strengths, you need those differences.

[Kyle]: I love a good sports metaphor. 

[Kyle]: Sports, you know, that's great! No, I was thinking too like in soccer like, you have Lionel Messi, one of the best soccer players. You think, what weaknesses does he have? Well, the fact that he can carry the ball and slip through it’s because he's kind of tiny, he's kind of a short guy. You wouldn't want him defending corner kicks, you know? You want him up top attacking, right? And same with football, it's really easy to see that a good football team has a bunch of diversity on that team. You got the fast guy, you got the big guy, you got the strong guy, you got the guy that's low to the ground, all those different guys.

[Sara]: You want the variety so you can win the game.

[Kyle]: Exactly

[Sara]: You don't want just a bunch of fast little guys [Laughter]

[Kyle]: Yes. Well, and so, on that point is, I found that what judgment does for me, when I slip into that dichotomous way of thinking, I’m saying dichotomous, you know, either or, it's not both. It's got to be either or, it's black or white, it's good or bad, right? That typically when I’m judging you or judging the kids, I’m the good one, I’m the hero.

[Kyle]: I know, I’m the competent one, I come to you as the incompetent one, the one who is not good enough and then, we end up slipping into it. I know we've noticed this in our marriage early on, is then in order to somehow resolve that conflict, is not really a resolution, but-- Then, you have to become me, you know? And I’ve seen a lot of couples do that, where one is judging the other and the other feels like the only answer is “well, then I just have to do it your way” and now, we're both just doing it the same way. I mean, even in couples where let's say, one spouse is the yeller and gets really mad and the other spouse is more the gentle kind of thing, is then the yeller feels like they've got to become the quiet gentle one, right? And it's not to say that there's not some good in in that change, but you don't want the one to just turn into the other, you know? And you don't want the other one who's the quiet one, to turn into the other. You want both of them to come with what they're bringing to the table, the good, the bad, the ugly and come together to decide “how do we want to do this together?”. Whether it's marriage or parenting.

[Kyle]: And then we give each other the freedom to work that out, right? It's going to be messy, they're going to mess up, it's going to look gross at times, but to work that out and believe that the other one is trying to move towards positive change, you know? To move towards something better.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. I think, in that example, the “I know you and I can kind of fit into that”, right? Where you're the loud and I-- At first, even from the “oh, I’m the victim of this real aggressive person”, you know?

[Sara]: You can slip into that, but you can-- But I learned over time, I really came to appreciate how assertive you could be. Yes, it can go to aggression, but you brought the strength of being assertive and heading into situations, where I am very calm, very peaceful, patient, but conflict is a really hard thing for me. So, I could look to you and see where “okay, I can bring this and you can bring that”.

[Sara]: You can bring that assertiveness and that-- I wouldn't say, it's almost like a fearlessness of conflict, you know? So, I think we can look at things that way, we can look at situations and look for-- Or we can come to a place of judgment, where we're going to outline everyone's position of victim, aggressor, bad person, good person.

[Kyle]: Yeah, “everyone’s wrong”. Fit in there, exactly, yeah. “You're the quiet one, you're the loud one, you're the mean one, you're the nice one”, yeah and if we're doing that in the family, there's probably a lot of judgment going on.

[Kyle]: If everybody's fitting a certain role and there's no freedom to grow in chains.

[Sara]: “This is the golden child; this is the good one”.

[Kyle]: Yes. “That's the rebellious one, that's the black sheep”. You want to move out of those.

[Kyle]: You know, I’m thinking, Sara, I know early on, we did have those roles, we were much more kind of stuck in our roles, in a sense of you were, you know-- I’m bringing this up, because I’m trying to think of how many married couples might be having issues of seeing their differences as a strength and how they approach their kids, but really, that's where you get the statement “opposites attract”, you know? That, yes, I can be all those things you just said, but what I love about you is you didn't think that was the only way. [Laughter] I remember you and I were on a trip in Russia, in Siberia and I felt like this airline person was ripping me off and the way I was gonna handle it, was my normal aggressive, in your face, American “you will not!”, you know? “Think you can take advantage of me!?” way and you responded totally differently. You instead seemed a little scared by how big I was getting, how loud I was getting, when I thought “hey, it's justified, this guy is trying to rip me off of all my money. I need to get it back” and so, in talking to you even then, this is back when we were just friends, you showed me a different way and I tried it and it actually felt better [Laughter]

[Kyle]: I went to like, this Russian security guard and asked him to help me and he did and he went and took care of the situation, I never yelled anybody, it was awesome! And I was-- That kind of got me thinking and that was funny, because that was before we ever started dating or got married, that Sara knows a different way of relating to people in this world during conflicts, you know? And so, that then bled into our marriage and one of the stories I want to share in particular, that I think was really helpful, Sara, for you and I to grow in this area was, there was this time in our life where Abby was small and she was maybe four and she could be very, very big with her energy. If she wanted something done, she would yell and scream to make it happen [Laughter]

[Sara]: She's very passionate and you know that three to four age, developmentally that's a big time of emotion and Abby’s a passionate, you know? She's got those big emotions, so she was showing them in full force at that age.

[Kyle]: Yes and so, there was a few days, a few weeks where I would come home from work and at that time, I was a school counselor and did some alcohol and drug counseling on the side, so I would come home kind of late, it was being kind of near bedtime or-- And I was just, kind of drained and I’d come home and hear her yelling at you and hear you doing this strange thing, where you were just like, talking really kind and calm to her and in my mind, because I think I was in the limbic system, because of all the stress throughout the day I wasn't-- I’d come home and go “oh my gosh! This is what I have to come home to? This is ridiculous!” and immediately, it was my way or no way it. It was “Sara's being weak, Sara can't stand up for herself. You got to put Abby in her place, Abby’s got to know how to respect you and Abby’s got to--”.

[Kyle]: So, I would come in and I would look at you and basically, be really condescending to you and just kind of say like, “are you seriously? This is your thing you're doing? Get out of here like, I got this”, you know? And on those occasions, I’m sure it really hurt your feelings [Laughter] I’m sure you didn't like how it felt.

[Sara]: [Laughter] I was fine.

[Kyle]: And so, I would be like “just, come on, get out, I’ll take care of this” and it was demeaning and disrespectful to you, but I thought “this is what you got to do with kids when they act like this”. So, I’d get bigger than Abby and eventually, Abby would relent and I didn't like how I felt doing that, but I feel like “you know what? Sometimes you got to do that as a parent, you got to be the bad guy”, you know? It's nice for you to be the good cop [Laughter] Because you back off, right? And so, that went on a few nights. I would love to hear before I get to the resolution, how did you feel when I would come in and do that?

[Sara]: No, you're right, I honestly, I didn't even feel like I needed your help, you know? And then, you would come in and so--

[Kyle]: [Unintelligible]

[Sara]: Right, right and it felt dismissive of me, condescending, yes. [Laughter]

[Sara]: And then I would feel-- And I also felt for Abby, who I knew was in a-- She was in a rough spot, you know, like emotionally, she was being four and whatever was wrong for her, felt like the world was crumbling and then, all this energy comes in to her place of big energy.

[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. So, I remember that night or a couple nights into this and we'd already been doing some of this training with Dr. Becky Bailey in Conscious Discipline at the time and I remember we came back into the living room and I was upset, I was still kind of hot. I was like “I’m so tired of coming home from work and hearing all this chaos!”, you know? “Have it under control for goodness sakes!”, you know? And so, I remember you were sitting on the couch and I said to you “you know? I get so tired of you being passive, because then when you're passive, it makes it to where I have to be aggressive” and, do you remember your response was? You said-- She's shaking her head, it’s not good. [Laughter]

[Sara]: Yeah, no, I don’t remember [Laughter] I remember the conversation, but not what I said.

[Kyle]: Yes. No, no, you just said “well, that's funny, because I feel like I have to be passive because as soon as you come in that door, I know you're going to be aggressive” and I felt like, you kind of done a jedi mind trick on me, because I was definitely the good guy and you were the bad guy and you flipped it to where maybe I might be the bad guy and we needed to get out of that dichotomous, right? That dichotomous thinking and so, then I just was like, “fine, what do we do?” and you said “well, let's try to do what we've been learning and what we've been teaching, you know? Why don't we try to be assertive with each other? Why don't we try to stop judging one another?”, you know? So, I was like “what does that look like?” and you were telling me “Well, when you come in from work and you hear me and Abby having this problem, why don't you ask me if I need help? Just ask, yeah?” and that thought had never crossed my mind, because it was obvious you needed help [Laughter]

[Kyle]: And so, just ask and you said this, I thought this was really interesting, you said “I might even need your help, the way I’m doing it in there, might not even be the best way to do it, but I have to figure that out. Abby needs to see me figure that out. Maybe it will look more like what you're doing, maybe eventually it's the direction I need to go, but I need to figure out how to do this moment with her and she needs to know I can do it with her, otherwise, this is just going to continue happening” and I thought that sounded really good [Laughter] It's like a really valid point, but then you added on it, the cherry on top of that to kind of move away from this judgment thing. You said “and if I say I don't need your help, just go sit on the couch and maybe pray for me, at least think positive thoughts about me” and I was like “okay, okay, I can try that, I can try that”.

[Kyle]: And I remember that was a really life-changing week for me, because it did happen again the next night, I did come home and Abby was upset and I came in and I said “do you need my help?”, because it looked like you obviously did [Laughter] and you said “no, thank you, I’ve got it” and I went back to the couch and at first, I’m sitting there, just in judgment, just like “oh my gosh. Oh, oh yeah, that's going to work. Oh, what did you just say?” I’m just like, picking apart and then “Kyle, Kyle, shush, shush the judgment, get into a better space, just support her”. So, then I just started saying a little prayer for you, started thinking about and then all of a sudden, I heard Abby start to calm down. Abby all of a sudden started to resolve the issue with you and I was like “oh, that's interesting” [Laughter] And I thought “the next night, I want to see if this works again”.

[Kyle]: Next night, it happened again, but this time “do you need help?”, “no, I don't”. I sat on the couch and this time, I just moved right into the space of just like, curiosity and I was like “dang, Sara actually knows what she's doing. I guess after counseling all those kids all those years, maybe she did learn some things that I hadn't quite learned yet just being a school counselor” [Laughter] And so, I would sit there, so I started to pick up “I’m gonna try that next time” and then when the thing got done, I was like “honey, that was awesome! You did really great” or “I’m really impressed with how you did that!” and I started to grow in gratitude and admiration of your ability to like, pave this whole new path that looked like nothing I’d ever tried. Very, very rarely had I ever even seen somebody do it that way and I thought “that's really interesting, I want to add some of those components to what I’m doing and see how effective I can be with those extra things added too”.

[Kyle]: Judgment is so dangerous in a marriage and in parenting, because it starts to create that culture that we talked about, kind of in the shame one, but also in the previous podcast of “I’m against you, I’m opposed to you, I need to somehow change you, you aren't good enough” and so, I this quote that Becky Bailey uses a lot that says “what I offer to others is a gift to myself”, you know? And really what that means is, when I come in in the limbic system and I offer you judgment, I’m really inevitably offering judgment to myself, because when I-- Like you said, when I hold myself up to this higher standard and put myself up above you, right? Then when there's a conflict between me and one of the kids, now I’ve got to do it perfect. It's all got to work out really well, otherwise, what's going to happen? I’ve got to judge myself, right? The same thing I gave to you is gonna come back and hurt me and it creates this thing, where then you're judging me and you're like “why is Kyle doing that? That's not working, I’m judging you” and we're all trying to like, compete for the perfect way to handle it, instead of realizing “wait, the two different ways we see it, is the strength that we have here” and going to that point, is there was times where I did say “do you need help?” There have been times and you'd say “yeah, I do need help”.

[Kyle]: And then what I found when you did that though, I didn't come in as like “oh yeah, that's right, because the way you're doing it stinks”, it was more out of compassion of like “oh, cool”.

[Kyle]: “She thinks I have something to offer” and then I found the situation with me and the kid went differently.

[Sara]: Yeah. Well, I would say that you and I moved into that space, it wasn't when our kids were super, super young. Maybe for Ellie, but move into that space where we would tag team and I would see the strengths that you had and I would go “I think in this moment, we need to bring that energy into the room, we need to bring your strengths into the room” and I know vice versa, there's been times your you've said, you know, we just notice in ourselves we're not in a good place or something or we just notice that we need the other person's strengths, so we're just like “hey, I need you for that, can you go take care of that?”

[Sara]: And that was a huge turning point and so helpful for us, where we could get out of that judgment of, you know, you judging me as so soft and me judging you as “oh, so aggressive” or something and see that they're-- What's funny is when, we move out of that judgment, we actually then tend to fall less into that weakness.

[Kyle]: Exactly, you're right. It’s so good.

[Sara]: Which is funny, you know, what I--

[Kyle]: The extreme of the strength, right?

[Kyle]: That your strength is you are soft and kind and you know.

[Sara]: But then, it can shift, it can slide into insane with your assertiveness and slide into aggression.

[Sara]: But I feel like happens less, when we're not in that place of “I’m not judging you, you're not judging me” and from either perspective, where then we can draw on our strengths within ourselves and within the other person in those moments and that's been a helpful turning point for us.

[Kyle]: Can I point out something that, even as you're saying, I think every parent listening this has been in that moment where your kid is acting up in a store and you feel the judgment from those around you. Does anybody think that's helpful? [Laughter] Nobody goes “man, the judgment from all those people at Target really helped me get into a better state, you know?”. It really doesn't help at all, so why do we keep doing it to each other as spouses? Right?

[Kyle]: Why do we do it to the kids when they're having conflict, right? Like “oh, johnny keeps doing that. Ugh” and we come right in with the judgment and then, what that's gonna do is the kid is going to feel just like we feel, when we're at the store and the kid acts up, right? It's just-- It's a yucky feeling, you know? And I like, something that you and I have purposely tried to do, not every time, but last time-- If there's somebody-- A kid acting up in a store and a parent is getting kind of upset and they look kind of rattled, our kids will go “wow, that parent's getting really upset”. We’ll stop for a second and do the same thing you asked me to do, which is maybe pray for that parent, maybe send some positive thoughts to that parent, that that parent is trying to do the best they can in that moment and even though it may not be coming out very well, it may be coming out harsh and mean, they really do want to love that kid and they really, in that moment, just don't know how, probably because they're afraid they're being judged, you know?

[Kyle]: They think everybody around them is going “you are not a good enough, you stink as a parent”

[Sara]: Yeah, because your child is misbehaving.

[Kyle]: “Do I need to call somebody on you?”, right? And so, I think what judgment does in simple terms is, judgment ends up-- At least what I see happening among siblings, among spouses, among parents with kids, is judgment, what you focus on you, you kind of get more of too. So, as I’m looking at what is lacking in you, it creates this huge chasm that we just can't seem to bridge, you know? Like it just-- Eventually, [Unintelligible] for couples it might lead to divorce, you know? Where we can't possibly work through this, because the way you do it is so far different than the way I do it and what you just said is, when we're in judgment, we go to those polar extremes and the more judged I am, the more polar extreme I’m going to get, right? Whereas as you and I accepted each other as we were, we found we more moderated towards a middle, that still we didn't lose ourselves into each other, we still approached from what was uniquely beautiful about ourselves and that was our strengths, but that became more of a strength and less of a weakness.

[Sara]: Kind of going back to that team [Laughter] Team!

[Kyle]: Yeah, perfect. Another good sports metaphor, yeah.

[Sara]: Yeah, where the more we can just notice each other's strengths and our own strengths and then come together as parents, then--

[Kyle]: It's so good.

[Sara]: Yeah, it's helpful.

[Sara]: And honestly, it kind of feels yucky when you're in that god seat of “I’m the judge”. You can't be human and other people can't be human and it doesn't-- It just doesn't feel good. I think, when we accept that “I don't have to be perfect, you're not going to be perfect and we can just come together”, that feels so much better.

[Kyle]: It does.

[Sara]: And it models to our children. “Hey, we've got strengths, we've got weaknesses, we're doing our best here, you do your best” and we can all be more vulnerable with each other, we can come together more and help each other more, but when everyone's like “no, I’m the judge, you're the judge, you know, mom's the judge, she's going to decide whether we're bad or good”, you know, it just perpetuates those other patterns.

[Kyle]: Well, especially like you said, yeah, if the siblings are arguing and mom or dad come in and they're like “oh no, the judge is here!”

[Kyle]: There's-- Almost every time, they're going to go back and be defensive, they're going to like “I didn't do it! I don't know!”, but going-- You mentioned this before we started this as we were talking about judgment is, I do want to point out for parents who are listening is, you know, Sara and I were in a place, where I was definitely yelling way too much, I definitely was slipping into when the kids were very, very young early on, where aggression to me was the only way to change a moment, you know? And I think a lot of couples fall into that, where one is wanting to make a change and saying “I want to use more empathy, I want to be more gentle, I don't want to keep using fear and shame in our parenting” and another one's having a harder time shifting. Maybe because of how they were parented, maybe just naturally their personality leans more towards aggression and that kind of stuff and I think what helped me so much, was there were key moments where I was not being the parent I wanted to be and what I did not get from you, was judgment.

[Kyle]: You know, I remember one time in particular where I was upset at Abby or Brennan and I was yelling and I came back in the living room, I remember you were sitting on the floor calmly folding laundry and you just looked at me and said “you realize what you're doing in there is nothing that we would teach parents to do?” and I just felt like there's such this open-handedness like, you were correcting me, but it wasn't out of judgment, it was out of like “honey, that's not what we said we were gonna do” [Laughter] and I looked at you and I said “oh, I know that, I know it”.

[Kyle]: And later on after I finish what I’m doing in there, I’ll come back to you and we can decide how to do this better, but in this moment, the train has left the station [Laughter] It was so hard and I didn't get from you judgment, which I think if I had, it would have made me want to be more entrenched or caused me to be more entrenched in what I was doing, you know? So, I want to encourage all those parents who are maybe struggling with those differences, that I think it's difficult, it's very hard, but I know in my own personal experience what gave me the freedom to become the parent I am today to change, was compassion, grace, love, forgiveness, but also, Sara, many times just saying “this is how I want to do it” and coming at it from, I think we can do that. I think it is better for us, I think there are ways in which you can teach me how to do it and I can teach you and it was this like, hand-in-hand approach of co-creating and I just think when I judge, you come close-fisted and there's really no way for the other spouse to grab your hand and do it together, it's only if it does become my ways better than your way and there's no spouse that's going to respond well to that.

[Sara]: Yeah, and I think, to reiterate that, there are definitely boundaries around that, right? Obviously if someone's doing something dangerous, that's a different story.

[Kyle]: Fantastic point.

[Sara]: We're talking within boundaries of what you were doing, maybe wasn't what we preferred, but it wasn't hurtful.

[Sara]: And so, within those boundaries and the fact that we were co-creating it, we were both-- We both knew, we believed in each other that we love our kids and we want to create this family together and we talked about that and went in that direction.

[Kyle]: And if you have a spouse who's wanting to do change and doesn't know how, that's why we have this podcast! It's fantastic! And we also if you go to the website parentinglegacy.com, we have courses we sell too, that can help as well for you both to get on the same page and once again, it's not going to look the same. When I’m doing this approach with my kids, it looks different the way Sara does it, because Sara's not me and I’m not Sara and it'd be gross if he both looked and sounded exactly the same. Now, it doesn't mean we don't have the exact same vision for where we want to go with it, it just looks a little different, you know? And I want to point out that especially with teenagers, this judgment thing is huge, you know? Because I know it's easier to judge them sometimes, because as teenagers you “think they should know better”, but I just put a note here I wanted to emphasize, that the teenagers I see and help in practice, they're very sensitive to our judgment and they will shut down or they will become defensive and there's really then no growth or them taking responsibility.

[Kyle]: So, I especially would ask, you know, parents of teenagers to really stop and really think about “what is my intent here? Is my intent to say «it's my way or the highway»? You know, the way I did it's good, the way you did is bad?”. Really the thing the teenager needs most, I mean, all kids do, but specifically teenagers, they want to co-create, they want to do this hand-in-hand with you, they want to come in for you to believe they can do it differently and then you together, create what that different way of doing it looks like. Whether it's how they're doing homework, how they're doing school, you know, how they're cleaning their room, whatever, they're really wanting your openness, not your judgment.

[Sara]: Yeah, they're in the throes of creating their identity and it may not be what-- How we imagine their life “you're going to be this meticulous person who does this and this” and we really have to be careful of that, you know? When they're little, we create this vision in our head and when they're teenagers, move-- Shift from that “I’m going to make you into”

[Sara]: And come alongside them and realize this is their life and they will invite you into that space much more.

[Kyle]: Yeah, yes. So, just an ending, I think the goal in doing this podcast is just to encourage people to let's get freedom from judgment of others and of ourselves. That judging my spouse only hurts my kids, so the more I was going to judge Sara or Sara judge me, it actually makes it more difficult for me to actually be the best parent I’d like to be with my kids and if we don't judge the kids, it also helps them be able to love their brothers and sisters in a more open-handed way, rather than “their way is the best way”, you know? So, I just encourage all of you who are listening, to notice that. When am I slipping into “this is the right way, that's the wrong way. This is the good way, that is--”? When I’m always the hero and they're the villain, you know? I want to instead kind of have more openness about that, to let go of that judgment. “What I offer to others is a gift to myself, I want to treat them the way they would want to treat me”. So, just to really think about those kinds of concepts and see how those play out throughout the week and how they change your approach to your spouse and to your kids.

[Kyle]: Please go on the podcast, we'd love for you to give your feedback. We'd love any questions you have, any thoughts, any things you would like us to talk about in the future. Giving us a five-star review would be great to help get the reach out there, to help more parents. Please share this with parents if you think it would help other parents that you know and Sara and I are so thankful for you taking the time to listen us today.

[Kyle]: The Art of Raising Humans podcast should not be considered or used as counseling, but for educational purposes only.