Episode 77

[Kyle]: In today's podcast, we're going to talk about how to raise honest kids. If you value the truth and a culture of truth in your family, you're going to want to listen to this podcast. 

[Music]

[Kyle]: Hello, and welcome to episode 77 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.

[Sara]: And I’m Sara.

[Kyle]: And today we're going to talk about the truth, right?

[Sara]: Right.

[Kyle]: The truth and nothing but the truth. Is that how that goes?

[Sara]: Okay. Yeah.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Okay. So, we're really passionate about raising kids who are truthful.

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: Does that mean a lot to you?

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, I think it does. I think it does to a lot of people.

[Kyle]: Why? Why do we want to raise kids that tell the truth? Why is that important to you?

[Sara]: Well, I think in general, it's considered a good character quality to have, that you're an honest person, a truthful person. That people can trust your word and what you say and if you can't, then it's really confusing, because I don't know-- How do I be in relationship with you? Because I don't know if you're telling me truth or not.

[Kyle]: How do I feel safe with you? Yeah, yeah. So, what does it mean to raise honest kids? Like, if you were to say-- Someone said “I want to raise an honest kid”, what do you think that means when people say they want to raise honest kids?

[Sara]: Kids who will tell you the truth even when they'll get in trouble, or that you can trust what they say and [Unintelligible] honest.

[Kyle]: Okay. So, that more often than not, you can believe what they're saying is true.

[Sara]: Yes

[Kyle]: And like you said, even when the outcomes are not positive or beneficial to them, they still will choose the truth.

[Sara]: Because I generally think people will think “oh, most likely people will tell the truth if it's easy and safe”. When something's on the line, we're risking something, that's when we don't want to tell the truth.

[Kyle]: I want to get in a little deeper into that subject, Sara. First, I want to tell our listeners, you know, we love doing these podcasts and we really love helping families all over the world with this information, and our goal isn't to create parents who do things the way we do, right? We really want to free parents to trust that they know how-- Some healthy ways to help change the dynamics in their families, right? We really want to help them be creative, to feel-- They feel safe and loved to be the parents that they want to be, right?

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: So, we really want to just equip you guys and so, we'd love it if you share this podcast with friends of yours that could be helped and any kind of rating, especially five-star ones are awesome and if you want to rate it and comment it, that means a lot to us, but also jump on Facebook and Instagram. We have reels every podcast that go along with it to kind of deepen your understanding of it or give you visuals of it. So, we'd love for you to continue supporting us in that way, okay? So, now I have a question for you, Sara. Why-- If you settle these things, right? And I think every listener is like “yes, I want to raise honest kids who tell the truth”. Fantastic, I think we all have those goals, okay? Why is being honest and truthful so difficult for kids?

[Sara]: Because it is the highest stakes. Not only-- I mean, obvious one is they could get in trouble. So, if they tell you something and they know that they weren't supposed to do that thing or whatever it might be, then they're going to get in trouble. So, who of us wants to walk around getting ourselves in trouble?

[Kyle]: Not me. I don’t want to do that.

[Sara]: You know, even if you right, we've all made decisions or choices and we're like “oh, that wasn't a good one”. But you don't necessarily want to go tell the important people in your life that you made that decision.

[Kyle]: So, wait, are you telling me a good example of that would be when the cop pulls me over speeding and says “do you know how fast you were going?” and I said “no, officer, I don't”. Would that be an example of that?

[Sara]: Right. We probably all can think of things with our bosses or with family members or even a friend. You're like “oh, I don't want to tell them I did this thing”. But I think more than a punishment, even though that is something, I think the other thing is just the risk to your view of me. So, our kids, they actually want their parents to think they're the best thing ever.

[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. They like that because it benefits their life. I mean, if you like them--

[Sara]: Well, who doesn’t love--?

[Kyle]: Yeah, their life is better.

[Sara]: Yeah. You want your friends, you want your boss, you want your family, you want your significant other, you want these people to think the best things of you.

[Kyle]: Yeah

[Sara]: So, I’m risking that relationship, I'm risking your view of me by telling you always the truth.

[Kyle]: Yes. Because I don't know how you're going to react to that, how you're going to receive it, and especially if you're in a family where it is unpredictable, you know? That mom or dad have--.

[Sara]: Or maybe you do know that they're really gonna think--

[Kyle]: That’s right. I mean, maybe [Unintelligible]. You're right. But I think the unpredictableness is also kind of, because then you actually think “oh, they want me to tell the truth” and they blow up at you and you're like “oh, they didn't want to hear that”.

[Sara]: Right.

[Kyle]: But I think whenever you and I were thinking about this, and I was thinking-- The question came to me, how do we create a culture of honesty in our family? So, how would-- If we wanted that, what are we doing to create that? But then you had this better question that came along with that, and I think listeners could process this with us. What are you as a spouse not telling the other spouse? You know, are there things-- I'd love the listeners-- I'm not asking you to say it right now. [Unintelligible] this is a way to get it out. “Sara, what are you not telling?”. No, but I bet everybody is thinking right now of things you've maybe never told your spouse.

[Sara]: Well, I think it's really easy for us sometimes as parents like “come on, kids, tell us the truth”.

[Kyle]: “Why can't you just be honest with me?”

[Sara]: If you just flip that around for a moment like, am I always telling the truth? Or do I sugarcoat things or maybe not tell the whole truth? Or maybe there's an entire thing I haven't said yet to this person in my life.

[Kyle]: Yes. Yeah, and--

[Sara]: It’s just something to think about.

[Kyle]: And also, to just be aware of, why is it so hard?

[Sara]: Right, exactly.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Why is it so hard? Why--?

[Sara]: Just to give you information, it can reveal a lot. If this is hard for me, if it took me weeks or months or whatever it took to be able to say this to this person, why? And that's probably a similar situation for your child.

[Kyle]: Sure, yeah. I remember especially first being married, that was kind of like, being all-- Like, there's always things that you did as a single person that you kind of just kept to yourself, and then now you're sharing this stuff, and it impacts this person and so-- But I'm thinking, Sara, lots of times what comes up in the private practice is parents just not being honest with their kids, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: Like all types of stuff going on. It may be simple stuff.

[Sara]: It's a one-way street. You be honest with me, but I'm not always going to be honest with you.

[Kyle]: I mean, even-- I just had a counselor ask me the other day about what I think about a parent looking at their kid's phone without asking them or telling them. I'm not even saying asking, but not even telling them, you know? Secretly doing it or even tracking a kid without the kid knowing you're doing that, you know?

[Sara]: Yes. Yeah.

[Kyle]: And I told her “Listen, there's no judgment about parents doing that. I just think it sets an unsustainable tone. An unhealthy tone, an unhealthy practice (I guess I would say), between you and the kid”. That once again, I'm asking the kid to do something with me that I'm not willing to do with them. Why? Because I don't trust they can handle the truth and that's how they feel about the parent too, right?

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: And then I was telling her too, I think it gives them information that the kid doesn't know they have and so, then the parent is reacting on that information, and the kid's going to be like “what is the deal? Why are you acting this way?”, right? Because the parent isn't being totally honest there and I understand some parents are doing it because they feel like--

[Sara]: Safety and things like that. Yeah.

[Kyle]: They have to do it because of safety. I get all that. So, I think there are some circumstances where--

[Sara]: But it muddies the water.

[Kyle]: It does. It does definitely muddies the water.

[Sara]: And so, in your relationship, if one person's holding something and the other person doesn't know it and these things are going on, you just got to know it makes the relationship more complicated.

[Kyle]: So, let's start with that. We say, how do we create a culture of honesty in our family where we value that while raising kids? So, your comment was “well, are we actually doing that with each other?”, right? In a marriage, are we actually honest with one another? How can I keep expecting the kid to be honest when I'm not only being honest with my spouse and also not honest with them? So, I've got to look at, how honest am I being? What am I modeling? You know? But then I was also thinking another one is, we think the truth is just so simple, you know?

[Sara]: Let me back up for a second.

[Kyle]: Okay.

[Sara]: I am saying-- I think also it is important to note we're not always going to be honest with our kids, and there may be reasons for that, right? To protect them, or they're not-- You know, they’re four years old and they don't need to know something it's not going to be in their interest. So, I just think it's important to bring light to that because your kid could be feeling that same way. I am not sharing this truth with you because it's just not going to help you. I'm protecting you.

[Kyle]: Yes. Yes.

[Sara]: And we can judge that or think about that as we want, but it's just important to hold these pieces and bring light to it.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, you said “hold on”, but that goes right into what I was about to say, right?

[Sara]: Okay

[Kyle]: Right? Yeah. Because what I'm saying is, is telling the truth just simply telling all the facts?

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: It's not. So, like, I think what you just said is an honest way to approach the thing, you know? So, being honest and being truthful doesn't mean I tell you everything about the situation, you know? It means I'm telling you what I believe in the moment is most helpful to you, you know? So, you might have a situation where something horrible has happened in the family and the little kids-- The kid’s little, you know? And obviously nobody thinks the honest thing to do is just to tell them all the horrible things that happened.

[Sara]: Right. “I'm going to be honest here. I'm going to be truthful here. Here’s all the details”.

[Kyle]: I know. I heard these people say “being honest is best. Truth will always set you free. So, I'm just going to tell you”.

[Sara]: Yeah, right.

[Kyle]: It’s not about-- That's where I think making that distinction that telling the truth isn't about getting the facts straight.

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: You know, if my focus is getting the facts straight, then that's typically where we get into conflict a lot, because getting the facts straight becomes “my facts are different than your facts”, and we start arguing about who has the right facts, you know? And [Unintelligible] we're not actually being honest, because I think the truth and honesty goes deeper than the facts. It goes deeper.

[Sara]: Yeah, we just got to know-- I mean, probably everyone's heard of that, where if you had seven people-- I don't remember what the study is. A ton of people watching a car accident, they would all give different reports, you know? Because we have to realize our brain is actually only capturing. There's things on-- Remember we've watched these really great science shows on this? But how much your brain doesn't actually store. We think it's storing every picture of everything that happened in the last 5 minutes or of some event, but it actually doesn't. It does actually select certain things, leaving other things out. Our perspective plays into that. Our paradigm and what's happened in our life plays into that. So, we just have to hold truth for one person can be different than someone else's truth, and it doesn't mean that one is being dishonest.

[Kyle]: Invalidating-- Yeah, yeah. But getting to that point, that's where I would lean that way, and I think a lot of parents do. Is when it comes to facts, I feel okay-- Typically, it's why I think we lean that way. It's easy to go “oh yeah, look at the facts, they line up. I have the same facts as you. Cool, we're telling the truth”.

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: Where I get into a problem as a dad is feelings just don't seem to fall into that, you know?

[Sara]: Right.

[Kyle]: And I don't think as a kid, I knew a lot of adults who really trusted my feelings. So, I didn't trust them either. But it seemed like if I had-- If I felt and I'm putting out quotes “felt something” and they didn't feel the same thing, the facts didn't line up or they deemed that I shouldn't feel that way, then therefore my feelings were not validated. Somehow, I was being dishonest, you know? And even I do this-- I just did this recently when we were in Disney World back in January, you know? Our son Brennan, I came-- It was a day I worked that day. I saw a lot of clients over video. You guys were at the Magic Kingdom that day and I took an Uber over to the Magic Kingdom. It was actually my birthday and I was really excited about--

[Sara]: We were going to have an evening together.

[Kyle]: Yeah, looking at the-- In the Magic Kingdom, the fireworks were going, we had some fun.

[Sara]: We're going to do some rides, yeah.

[Kyle]: Desserts and then we're going to do some rides at night, which we hadn't done in the past because the kids were too little. But now the kids are a little older, they could do that. Well, as soon as I get there, there was some fun, but then Brennan started to cry and he said he was sick and I remember just thinking “are you serious? Like, Come on. How sick can you be, dude?” and I'm just like “why are you ruining my birthday?”. I mean, do you see how so much judgment about him being dishonest? Like, why would he want to ruin my birthday? I don't know, but in my mind, he did, you know? He was ruining my birthday.

[Sara]: Just playing it up and [Unintelligible] 

[Kyle]: “Oh yeah, you're making a bigger deal. Come on, man.”

[Sara]: “You’re fine, just push through a little”.

[Kyle]: So, long story short, eventually we try to get on a ride. He thinks he can do it. We're actually in line to get on the jungle cruise and then now he's feeling really bad, and “oh, my gosh”, I'm getting so annoyed. I mean, I'm really annoyed for the whole-- The whole walk home--

[Sara]: He was. You were annoyed.

[Kyle]: I'm probably at like, a six or seven at the annoyance level, and the whole time I was like “what is Brennan's problem? Get over it, dude. Like, stop letting feelings--”

[Sara]: I think we got some [Unintelligible] on the way out.

[Kyle]: I know. Yeah. Like, I’m just gonna get some-- I tried to enjoy some. But I'm telling you, we get to the hotel, the first thing Brennan does, it gets a trash can and vomits all over the place. I mean, obviously in the trash can, thank goodness.

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: But he was really sick.

[Sara]: Yeah, he had a fever.

[Kyle]: he had a fever. He was really sick and then I was like “wow, the truth was different than what I thought it was. I thought the truth was he was making a bigger deal out of it than what he is. He could really get over this. Stop thinking about yourself. Stop being so selfish”, you know? But I wasn't even willing to be receptive in that moment to his truth that he was sick and especially something-- It seems like that's so obvious. I'm not in his body. How would I know how sick he is? Right? That seems like an obvious one. “Why can't you just accept that, Kyle?” But I was resisting it the whole way because his facts weren't backing up with my facts. Our facts were coming at odds and to me, that's all truth was. It was just a bunch of facts, you know? Like, “what have you done? Who have you been around? Why would you be sick?”. I mean, obviously there's a lot of reasons. He was around a bunch of people at Disney World, but all those things were happening at the same time and I think that's what happens with parents, is when it comes to the facts, if they get a line, that's truth to them. But if the facts are different, that's a lie and especially when it gets kind of a little harder to grasp, like how the kid is feeling about it or how you were feeling about it, it's really hard to use facts to somehow come to a consensus on what the truth is, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: And that's where I think truth can be so hard and I remember, Sara, you and I were raised at a time in culture, and I don't know if you felt this way, where just feelings were not as trusted, you know? I found myself doubting the validity or honesty of my feelings and other people's feelings and I still today struggle with getting out of that space and really just accepting how that person feels and not believing that how they feel has to be the complete truth, but it is part of the truth.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. Instead of just seeing it as a manipulation or drama being so dramatic. Yeah. I think it’s-- I think a lot of times it's feelings-- Because they're not concrete, you can't sort them out; like you were saying with facts. I think facts are hard, but feelings are even harder because you don’t-- There is always this sort of nagging “are you just saying that? Do you really feel that?” or you know, when we can't understand-- Especially when we struggle to understand their perspective.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, because it's been so long since we've been a kid, or maybe we never faced that situation before, or we just now have a different perspective, you know? I mean, there's many times, Sara, I've come home and our kids are upset about something. It seems like the end of the world to them and I've just left a kid who recently been diagnosed with some kind of deadly disease and so, it's hard for me to not judge their feeling and be like “do you know what's happening in other kids’ lives?”

[Sara]: [Unintelligible] “there are kids starving in the--”.

[Kyle]: Exactly. Yes, yes. So--

[Sara]: “How can you be full?”

[Kyle]: So, if we're raising kids who are going to be honest and tell the truth, we're creating a culture in our home that's honest and focused on the truth. I think we need to be honest about how there are so many stories informing and guiding how we interact with our kids. Because many kids that I work with are confused why their parents are making certain decisions or why they're blowing up about certain things and then when I talk to the parent and they tell me the story, it makes sense. Like, you and I get the luxury of hearing both sides and we go “oh, I can see, that makes sense”, but the kid doesn't know that story.

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: So, to the kid, the kid isn't actually able to receive what is really true in this moment or what is honest, because the parent isn't really revealing that to them, you know? They're holding back for some reason, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: So, I think the truth, it's important that the truth isn't always just black and white. There's always layers and depth to it. The truth is like an onion that we are constantly peeling back and I just think for me, and I hope this helps you listeners, this is a better metaphor to me. I don't know if that helps you, Sara, seeing it like that. It helps me be more patient with myself and with my kids, knowing that the truth isn't always so easy to see.

[Sara]: Yeah. Well, I like the onion idea because I don't know if you've ever had that feeling where at first, you're like “well, I'm mad because of this, this and this”, and then as you're chatting with your friend or you're processing through, you're like “well, I mean, that is it. But really, it's because this thing happened yesterday or in my childhood, or--” You know, you find out there was some deeper meaning to that event that happened, someone else would have a completely different take on it.

[Kyle]: 100%. Yeah, sure.

[Sara]: So, that is that layers of the onion, because you peel off and this is what we think the onion is, and you take that off and you're like “oh, it's really this. Oh, you take that off and oh, it's really this” and in relationships, it's that way and in our personal experience and in our life, there are layers and your children have layers too.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and I think what's so cool about getting to talk to kids about these stories is, once you start peeling back those layers, you see it all make sense. I mean, there really is reasons for why they chose what to do and it wasn't because they were evil. It really was they thought that was the best decision.

[Sara]: Right. It’s complicated. Yeah.

[Kyle]: It is and so, it's not to say we just go “oh, when can you ever really know the truth?”. The point of that conflict and the desire to want to be honest and truthful with each other is the thing that is supposed to drive you towards being more understanding of where the other is coming from. I mean, Sara, there's so many times a parent has said “it makes no sense why the kid would lie to me about that” and then when I talk to the kid, it makes perfect sense, you know? In the kid's mind there was no other way to handle that but lie to you.

[Sara]: Yeah, that was the best path.

[Kyle]: Yeah.

[Sara]: Yeah. I had to protect you or I had to-- Yeah.

[Kyle]: And then what's interesting, sometimes when a parent does something like “let's just have a truth table, where there is nothing that's going to happen to you. Just tell me the truth”. The kid is like-- I've never had a kid and say “no, I don't want that”. The kid's like “that's awesome”. Because I know when I tell the truth, Sara, it feels good.

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: Even though it might be scary, it feels good and the kid actually doesn't want to be burdened with being dishonest with you and not telling you. It's a burden to carry.

[Sara]: It Is.

[Kyle]: And it actually feels more freeing to be vulnerable and open with you. It feels good. That feels just good. But they're always assessing, just like you are as the parent, whether or not that risk is worth taking.

[Sara]: Yeah, and a lot of times it's not. You can't blame them.

[Kyle]: No

[Sara]: It's not worth taking.

[Kyle]: And when they explain it to me, I can say “I think I would have done the same thing”.

[Sara]: Yeah, and even they are sad that they can't be more honest, that they can't share more. But either your reactions have taught them you can't handle it, or these certain punishments or these certain things, you weigh that against risk and it's just an intelligent person who would decide not to take that risk.

[Kyle]: I'll even give an example of a kid doesn't want to go to a certain like, maybe not go to church or not go to a certain school thing, and the parents will say “I don't know why he won't do the tools you've been teaching him”, and when I talk to the kid, the kids will say “I'm doing the tools, but I feel like all my parents are wanting me to tell them is, ‘I want to go and I had a great time’. They don't want to hear that I didn't like it and how do I know that? Because every time I say I didn't like it, they get really mad at me”.

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: “So, that tells me that's not the answer they wanted”, you know? So, he's like “are they wanting a truthful relationship with me, or do they just want me to lie to them to make them feel better?” and so, some of the kids, by the time they're in those preteen teenagers, they have figured out that game. You know, I have one kid right now who-- His go-to is just, he actually just will tell jokes with his family, his parents, and they will think he's doing better, when really, he's not doing better at all. But he says “if I'm-- As long as I'm telling jokes and being happy and laughing, they think everything's fine”.

[Sara]: That's very common.

[Kyle]: Yeah

[Sara]: Yeah, that's very common because I know the mask--

[Kyle]: We do with friends; we do with all that stuff.

[Sara]: I know the mask you want me to put on, and I realize it's because some-- Sometimes it’s like “you're worried about me or whatever it might be and so, I'll just wear this mask around you to take care of you”.

[Kyle]: I can even see what happening with us. If we continued to watch movies, and every time we watched a movie and you said you didn't like it, I got mad at you, you might eventually just start telling me you like that movie.

[Sara]: Or going out to eat and trying new foods.

[Kyle]: Exactly, right. So, eventually, over time, you would learn to kind of fake it to keep peace in that relationship.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle]: So, that's where I put here is, I'm sure there are many areas in my life I'm still lying to myself about, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: There's still places that, as I get older, things will be revealed to me that I've deceived myself and deluded myself, right? And so, what I love about our marriage is you help me see the truth by revealing to me a different perspective, some way in which you see me that I may not be able to see about myself, you know? Some way that you might perceive my actions in a way I've never been open to perceiving that, you know? And that's really what I'm hoping to get to with the parents today, is I'm wanting them to see that's the whole point of the relationship. It isn't just to demand the right facts, it is to get to a place in the relationship where our feedback, their feedback to you and your feedback to them, will help us get to a place that's not 100% honest, not 100% truthful. Because like I said, I think that's a long journey to get there. It's a big onion, you know? But I think it's going to get us to a place where we're closer and closer and closer to that.

[Sara]: Yeah. Especially with those teenagers, you know? It makes you think of that friend you have, maybe who can be brutally honest with you or you can tell them your worst stuff and they can hold it and they can still challenge you, and especially in those teen years, that's kind of the direction you're trying to go, because you are going to be stepping out of this parent role. It's going to be different and trying to move into that, we can process through this stuff and we can be honest with each other.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and that becomes the culture of honesty, right? We want to create these relationships with our kids where we can be receptive to each other's perspectives and stories, and this will help the truth become more clear. So, one quick technique to do that we've been doing probably the past two or three years and we've mentioned it maybe on other podcasts, was this idea of-- I just love parents, you know? They'll tell me some story about why they did what they did, and then I'll say to them “have you told your kid that story?”

[Sara]: Yeah.

[Kyle]: And they'll be like “no, I haven't”. So, it'll be something “oh, I was scared about them doing that because when I was a kid and I did that, X, Y and Z happened”. They've never told the kid that story.

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: So, the kid has no idea why you're acting this way, you know? So, I'd say “what's keeping you from telling that story?” and “I just never thought it was important to tell”, you know? Or “I thought if I did, maybe somehow it wouldn't be helpful”, you know? But I think that is helpful for the kid to know that this is where you're coming from and you could tell them “Hey, listen, this is why I was so scared about that decision you made the other day. Because when I made that decision, this bad thing happened and I love you and I don't want that to happen to you” and then hopefully, that will help them be more open to sharing their stories as well, you know? And I encouraged one family to do this, Sara, and they said their kid just didn't understand it and I was telling them “It is a new way to explain things. So, it will take time to get into the habit of just saying ‘here's the story I'm telling myself’, and then revealing that”, right? It's almost like you have open hands and you're just exposing that story to allow the truth to now be seen, you know? But you're also giving them the freedom to tell you their story and how they saw it.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, and then go “oh, it’s so-- I love that, because when you do that, then it lets me see I can see your perspective and--" People might be hearing her dog barking in the background. She’s a little--

[Kyle]: Just to tell you the truth.

[Sara]: She’s a little unhappy right now.

[Kyle]: Yeah, that’s right.

[Sara]: In her crate. But anyway, I have this whole thing going in our-- You know, whatever is going on, discussion and then you tell me how you saw that moment and what your story is about that moment, and it informs so much to me and that's the same thing we do with our children. They can then go “oh, that's why you had that reaction. Oh, that's why this is important to you”, because it just fills in those holes that we don't know are there.

[Kyle]: Yeah, it illuminates the truth, I think is what I was feeling as you were saying it. It puts a light on it and illuminates us and helps us actually look at it and decide what we want to do with it, you know? So, I hope this expands your understanding of what it means to raise honest kids, because I bet every one of you listening wants to do that and how to invite your kids into that kind of honest, truthful relationship, because I guarantee your kids want it as well. It doesn't feel good to have that distance that not being honest creates, you know? So, I hope this helps kind of expand it, give you a different way of looking at it and some techniques to start creating that in your own home.

[Kyle]: So, I hope your summer is going well and once again, share this podcast. Tell your friends about us. We do have some more speaking opportunities that we'll be telling you more about coming up in the fall, so probably be looking for that in our next podcast. If you're in the Tulsa area, you can join us. But if you also have speaking opportunities you'd love for us to do, to talk about this topic or any other topic you hear us talk about, we want to do that all over the world. So, we're open to doing that here in Tulsa, but throughout the nation, throughout the globe. So, feel free to reach out at us-- To us through Facebook, Instagram. You could also go to the website at parentinglegacy.com, and we would love to make that connection with you. So, thank you for listening today.

[Sara]: Have a great day.