Episode 50

[Kyle]: Hello and welcome to episode 50. Today we've got a special guest. We've got our 12-year-old daughter Abby, to join us today in the podcast and we're going to see if this parenting thing actually works, you know? And have an honest conversation with her about the ways we do it well and the ways we could do it better. So, I hope it's helpful for you.

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[Music]

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[Kyle]: Hello and welcome to episode 50 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.

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[Sara]: And I’m Sara.

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[Abby]: And I’m Abby.

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[Kyle]: What? Oh my gosh, we have a guest here today! This is crazy! We thought on our 50th podcast, we wanted to do something different. I mean, I know all of you love hearing me and Sara talk but we thought we wanted to add a guest into the podcast today and the reason why we did that, is because we have talked a lot about moving away from fear and shame and doing this different kind of parenting approach and I remember, Sara, when we first started at doing this and we thought “okay, this sounds kind of cool”. We'd read some Dr. Markham, some Dr. Siegel, some Dr. Becky Bailey and we're like “okay, I like this”. We had done some stuff with other people's kids, me at school, you at the-- Okay, this is cool, we were kind of buying into it. But then as we started doing it with one of our kids, Abby being our first, we are kind of like “what if this does this doesn't work out?”. Right? Weren't you scared of that?

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[Sara]: I think anytime you try something new-- You probably were a little more nervous about that.

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[Kyle]: I was very nervous.

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[Sara]: I had worked with some kids over some time and I thought “wow, I really like the results of this”. But at the moment, any moment where it felt like it didn't-- Wasn't working, then I would question “okay, hold on, is this gonna work? Is this gonna be great for her?”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and I think my fear was, we had never seen this done before, right?

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[Sara]: We haven't seen a grown-up.

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[Kyle]: Exactly. No, we hadn't seen like, a product come out to go like “oh, look, that kid's great! Let's raise our kids--!”

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[Sara]: “They survived! It’s so wonderful!”.

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[Kyle]: I mean, we know there's great things our parents did, but we knew there was things we wanted to do different, but we didn't know especially culturally-- You know, especially where we're from, we're in Oklahoma. So, in Oklahoma things culturally, there was a lot of fear, a lot of punitive, you know, punishment being given. Love and logic was real popular, right? With a lot of consequences and that kind of stuff.

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[Sara]: Perfect timeouts.

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[Kyle]: Yes, yeah. We'd watch Super Nanny and all those kinds of shows on TV and be like “oh, look at that, that's the way--”. So, for us the only people we had really heard doing it differently was like, Dr Becky Bailey and Dr Markham and those kinds of authors, right?

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[Sara]: Yeah, pretty far away.

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[Kyle]: So, then it was really, really helpful to me and I think you liked it too. It's really helpful to you too, Sara, when Dr Markham did a thing-- I can't remember, I think it was like a blog she did, where she talked with her kids and she talked about what it was like to be raised in this kind of home and her kids sounded kind of cool! You know? She had two kids.

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[Sara]: They're adults.

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[Kyle]: Yes, they're adults.

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[Sara]: They were grown, so she was interviewing or having a conversation with them as adults, full grown out of school adults.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and then there was another book we read too, where Dr. Gottman had done a book called “Raising Emotionally Intelligent Children” and he followed these kids being raised with more emotion focused approach as opposed to behavior approach and just-- There's all these great results there, but it was really cool to just hear her own adult kids talk about this.

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[Sara]: Yeah. Well, I think too, I remember we came up-- We were looking for studies. Longitude and all, which means over decades of time and no, I don't want to hear the results of 10 kids, I want that-- You know, and so, we were always looking for studies and we found some, we were-- You know, Dr. Markham actually pointed us in the direction of some, that looked at people who had been raised different ways and over a long time and those kinds of things helped give us some certain [Unintelligible]

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[Kyle]: Some sense of confidence. Yeah. I mean, I think certainty still was not a thing.

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[Sara]: Yeah. I was about to say certainty, but “okay, hold on to that”.

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[Kyle]: It made it easier trust the process, right? I think that's what it was and we just did a podcast a couple of weeks ago, called like “what if it's not working?” and I think that was kind of our fear, was we were constantly like “that's not working and Dr Markham said to do that”. So, I know a lot of you listeners, as you're trying to adjust your parenting, especially as a couple it's hard. Sometimes one couple is more in, the other one is less and so, you have all of this like, friction that's happening because you're trying to like, see quick results and you may not be seeing them.

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[Sara]: Well, and you're trying to build a different skill, right? So, you've been using these techniques and this skill set and you're trying to shift and so, in there you’re like “am I getting right? Am I--? How should I be doing this?” and you're tweaking and getting better and better at it. I think that's [Unintelligible]

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[Kyle]: Well, another big aspect of this parent and the reason why we wanted to invite Abby in here. Just so all our listeners know, we've invited Abby into the master closet, where we record all our podcasts and we always have to turn off the AC to do this. So, it is hot, because today it is a hundred degrees today in Oklahoma, which is ridiculous because it's September. But we invited Abby in here, it's creating more body heat, so it's pretty hot in here. But we wanted her to come in here, because an aspect of our parenting, Sara, that I really wanted to model is we're not trying to be perfect parents.

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[Sara]: Yeah, it's not going to happen.

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[Kyle]: That's not the goal, it actually--

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[Sara]: No

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[Kyle]: If that was my goal, that's disgusting, it's sick, there's no way I can do it, right? I’m only-- None of us are going to be perfect parents and the goal that goes with that is “I don't want to raise perfect kids”, right?

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[Kyle]: So, I think the mistake is, if we just do it the right way, we'll raise kids who always do it the right way and it's easy to slip into that, you know? But I really want to raise kids who know who they are, right? And are able then to really live out of that and in that process, we're doing it together, right? We're messing up together, we're succeeding together, you know. So, I thought we'd take a leap on this, you know? We'd actually thought about-- We will do this in a subsequent podcast, of having other parents who are going to do some interviews with us, talking about what their journey's been like. But I thought this 50th one, let's just really talk to one of our own kids and hear about how it's been to be raised by us, right?

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[Sara]: Okay. Welcome, Abby.

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[Abby]: Hi

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[Kyle]: How are you feeling right now?

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[Abby]: Good. It's very warm in here.

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[Kyle]: Isn't it hot?

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[Abby]: Uh huh

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[Kyle]: It's a small closet and it's really hot outside, right?

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[Abby]: Yes, definitely.

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[Kyle]: So, I know your mom had a question here, okay? This is a big question, you just think about it and just so you know, listeners, we've not given her any of these questions in advance, I really just wanted her authentic responses to these. What do you think our goals in parenting are? Like, how do you think your mom and I actually want to be as parents?

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[Abby]: I think you guys are like-- Your goal isn't to be perfect or exactly right, but you guys's goal is to be able to like, help us grow and learn and help us be like, even better than you guys. But we know that like, you guys know that you guys will never be perfect and so, your goal is to be open to learning more and to being able to learn from us even. And I feel like that's really something that you guys really do well.

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[Kyle]: What do you like about this parenting approach?

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[Abby]: I’d say that this parenting approach is really nice, because I hear a lot of my friends, they just-- They'll just like-- They'll be like “oh, yeah, today my phone got taken from me and blah, blah, blah” and I don't feel like it really helps them learn, I think it just shows them like “oh, if you do this, your phone goes away. If you do this--" They're just like “oh, another day where my phone was taken away” or “oh, another day where they took my candy” and stuff like that and that's something that I feel like-- I know that like, if I do something wrong, it's not exactly wrong, it's just something I chose to do and then you guys want to support me into learning a different way to do that thing I did.

[Kyle]: And you prefer that? You like that?

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[Abby]: It's a lot better.

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[Kyle]: I did want to ask you, I know you're 12, almost 13, right? So, there's probably a lot of big feelings going on as you're going into teenage years, but we recently took a step, we got a phone for you.

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[Abby]: yeah, that was as amazing.

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[Kyle]: Okay. So, how--? I just think a lot of listeners will have teenage kids who are wanting phones or getting phones and of course, we're still on this journey with you, right? So, there's still things we're going to learn about how to handle that phone differently, but how do you think we--? How do you think that process went? I mean, I know sometimes you were frustrated because it was taking so long, we kept having conversations. But kind of tell me, how do you think that handling the phone has been going?

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[Abby]: I feel like it's been going really well and one thing I’m really enjoying about what you guys are doing and I feel like it's very helpful to me and-- Is your kids are like-- Parents aren't always going to be with your kid-- With their kid. They're not always going to be able to monitor everything.

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[Abby]: And so, I feel like that's been something that's really nice, is knowing that you guys have like-- You guys, know how to get into my phone, but I set up my own-- I don't have time limits on apps, I don't have any of that stuff, because I feel like-- It makes me feel like I’m trusted and then, it makes me want to keep that trust and if kids don't feel like they're not trusted, then it kind of is hard to want to like-- Like, they don't feel like “oh, but we don't wanna--” Then I just don't-- We'll just hide everything. But I feel like I can share with you guys, because I feel like you guys trust me enough.

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[Abby]: To know that it wasn't just me that was doing that. Like, trusting me that I’m not trying to be against you guys or I’m not trying to do that and so, I feel like that's something that I’ve been-- That's really nice and the waiting process, that was so hard.

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[Abby]: Noticing-- I mean, I know if-- A lot of kids around 12, they're seeing all their friends’ getting phones. I mean, even at 11, my friends were getting phones or you've seen your friends get iPods and stuff like that or their friends are-- You hear from your friends like “oh, they can get a phone whenever they save up”.

[Abby]: Like, why can't I do that? You know, like why isn't there a universal rule about this? Everyone can get a phone at 13, everyone gets it.

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[Kyle]: That’s right. Yes, yes, that’s right, yes.

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[Abby]: It's like-- So, it's like-- And sometimes like, I know you guys really-- You guys didn't even tell me when I was gonna get a phone, so I was like “someday, maybe in a million years, I might be 100, I might be 10”.

[Kyle]: Well, we didn't know and I want to point out one of the things that helped that trust happen, Abby, is you designed like, a piece of paper, right? You had a little presentation, right?

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[Abby]: With a list of things I felt like it was helpful and a list of things I felt like, I wanted to watch out for. And a list of things I wanted limits or stuff I wanted to set on it and we set those together.

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[Kyle]: Sorry, I-- Yeah, I thought that was great though. You came and you “here's all the things I think you could help me with. Here's all the things that I think could be dangerous about it or could be problematic” and then you set the limits, you know, like you said, with the conversation. But you showed the limits to us and you've always been so far with the phone, open handed with us about if we needed to tweak some of those or change some of those. It hasn't been us telling you what to do or you telling us what to do, it's us co-creating how to handle that phone together, right?

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[Abby]: Yeah, and that's really something I really enjoyed about, that was really nice about that is, I presented a presentation that basically said the limits and everything I wanted to set on my phone and we set those things together.

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[Abby]: Which was something that was really nice. Like, I know a lot of parents will be like “okay, get the phone, give it to me. I’m gonna set all your limits, I’m gonna give it back to you” and I feel like that's something that was really nice, is setting the limits together. So, we could co-create the limits, we could co-create how we wanted it to go and teaching me how to set my own limits on it.

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[Abby]: It was really nice because it teaches me like “oh, since you guys aren't always going to be there, you guys aren't always going to be there to set time limits on my apps, to set off times after [Unintelligible]” and so, having like “oh, I turn it in at night”, having a schedule for it was nice. But it's like “oh, but as long as you're doing well, you can just work with it, we're all working together in this and so, if you feel like there's something that you need to work on, if you like there's anything that we're open to helping you with that”.

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[Abby]: And I feel like that was really nice in not getting like, frustrated with me like “oh, you joined another group chat” or “oh, you did this”. Nice to be able to like, know that you guys were gonna be like open to me about it.

[Kyle]: I think something too that was helpful for you, is we talked a lot about the limits we have on our phones, you know? We have limits on what we watch, you know, we monitor how much we're on it, we're always open to any of you kids telling us you think we've been on it too much or any of that kind of stuff, right?

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[Sara]: After what we're doing on the phone. How we're using our phones, all that to be transparent.

[Kyle]: So, trying to model that and then trying to invite you into that. What things do you think Mom and I do well and what are some areas we could grow in? So, maybe start with what we do well first.

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[Abby]: I feel like what you guys do really well, is you guys are open to really learning from other people and us and you guys don't always like-- I know some parents are like “yeah, I’m right and you're wrong” and I feel like that's something that's really nice, is that about this-- About even this parenting approaches, it's about learning from your kids and learning from your family and learning from other people and so, it's a very-- I feel like it's a very open approach, instead of some approaches it's like “I’m right, you're wrong” kind of thing.

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[Abby]: And I really love that about you guys and the way that the parenting style works.

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[Kyle]: Okay, and what's some things we can do better? Oh oh.

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[Sara]: She’s like “let me put it on the list”

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[Kyle]: That’s right.

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[Abby]: I feel-- I mean, sometimes I do feel-- Sometimes I feel like this is just like-- I mean, I think that sometimes with the like, open abilities or feel like it's both, that sometimes as a kid, it's kind of hard to not want to be right every time.

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[Abby]: And so, it's hard to like, see you guys open and still be open too. But then, also it gives us a really good model of how to be open and I feel like-- Sometimes like, I feel like-- It feels like sometimes as a kid, you want to be rescued from everything. Like, you feel like your parents job is to rescue you from everything and so, it's kind of hard as a kid to know that like, if your parents are counselors or if your parents do this approach, it feels like they know what's best for you and then it feels like you don't feel like that's best for you and so, sometimes that feels like-- But I think what I’m saying is best for-- When I-- Most of the time I even know you guys are right, but it's like I want to be right, I want to be-- I want to have a reason why I should be rescued.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. So, what I heard you say is you feel like-- I mean, I know this was an area that you-- I was asking we could grow in, but you were saying kind of there, sometimes you would like us to be parents who just rescued you and took away the problem, made the problem disappear, right? But we don't do that.

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[Abby]: And its-- Yeah, and it's easy to blame it on the parenting approach, it's easy to be like-- Yeah, and it teaches you to like, let your kids go through it and just support them instead of rescuing them and that's something that's like, really easy to do, it's really easy to blame it on anything and so, it's hard to like, realize whenever you're blaming out on things or it's even harder whenever you-- Well, it's like nice whenever you know you're right, but then sometimes your parents feel like they're right too and then, that's something that is kind of difficult, because it's like-- But I’m right and you're right and you-- But as the kid, you want to be right really bad.

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[Abby]: And so, it's hard whenever your parents even-- Since they are the parents, they're gonna say that they're right and so, they might say that they're right and so, you just have to go with that and sometimes that's hard.

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[Kyle]: So, what you’re saying is sometimes, something we could get better at is, even we slip into like we think we know the right way and you think you know the right way and we come into conflict with each other, right? What does it look like when we have conflicts? Do Mom and I always handle it well? Or what's things that we do that you think are helpful when we're having conflict and what’s things you think we do that aren't very helpful?

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[Abby]: So, I feel like it's really helpful whenever like, accepting the conflict. I feel like is a big thing is like, knowing that there's a conflict, because some people I know try to deny it, like they're trying to be like there's no conflict. Like “oh, yeah, I’ll just do whatever you want because there can't be a conflict”.

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[Kyle]: To sweep it under the rug kind of thing, yeah.

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[Abby]: Exactly, and so-- But the kid still knows there's a conflict and so, it's hard like, to-- Because you feel like “oh, there is a conflict, so why are you pretending there isn't one?”.

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[Abby]: And I feel like that's sometimes really hard, but then it's also like, sometimes-- I know sometimes you do this where it's like--

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[Kyle]: You, you mean me? Right?

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[Abby]: Yes, yeah.

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[Kyle]: You're looking at me, they can't see you. They're going…

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[Abby]: Yeah. So, whenever you and I-- I mean, I know that we just like literally had an argument before this, but like, how-- Sometimes I feel like you're like-- I kind of like, sometimes you want to be your parents you know as a kid and you see your parents do these things that-- Or they tell you about these things and you're like “but if I could only do that, that would work”, you know?

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[Abby]: Or like-- Or they tell you the ways that they got around what their parents said or they fought their parents and they won and stuff and then you want to be that as a kid, you want to win and so, whenever your parents do something else, something other than that– You're like “why isn't it following the rule book? I thought I would win, I thought by saying that, I’d win”, yeah.

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[Kyle]: So, you're saying like, you see a lot of kids get into these power struggles and there's a winner and a loser and so, sometimes you'd like to be the winner, right? But what you're saying and not saying mom and I do this all the time-

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[Kyle]: But we don't try to get into these power struggles, we don't try to be winners and losers, we try to understand you and understand-- Right? And you are kind of like “oh man, I thought I was going to win that and then they're not really getting into that power struggle with me”.

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[Abby]: Exactly, they're not doing the win-lose thing.

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[Abby]: And so-- And I feel like that's a thing you see at a ton of places where parents are like, dragging their kids, they're trying to get them out of the store, they want a popsicle, something like that and it's like, there's a win-lose thing going on and that's something that's like, the kid wants to win, the kid's gonna win.

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[Abby]: So, it's gonna want to win, it's gonna find a way to win. And so, if you keep saying like “hey, I’m gonna win and you're gonna lose, it's win-lose and I’m gonna win, I’m gonna physically win”, then it just shows to the kid “oh, that's how we win, we win by doing exactly what our parents did, by pushing them, by shoving them, by--”

[Kyle]: By being louder than them, yeah.

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[Abby]: “Being louder than them, by yelling at them” and then, they-- Sometimes not even don't do it back to their parents and parents are like “oh, yeah, we're victorious, we did that great”.

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[Abby]: And then your kids are fighting and then it's like--

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[Kyle]: Then turn it to each other, yeah.

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[Abby]: They’re doing the exact same thing, they're just like “oh, you're too big to do that with”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, “I can't win against you, but I can win against this other one”.

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[Abby]: I can win against my brother; I can't win against my sister.

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[Kyle]: That's good, yeah.

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[Abby]: And so, I feel like that's something that a lot of people notice about me and Brandon and Ellie a lot, is that we know how to not win-lose and I feel like that's something that's really important for kids to know is, because if they just go through life thinking “oh, it's a win-lose, it's win-lose all the time”, they're gonna always want to win. No one's like “oh yeah! Woo hoo! I lost!”.

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[Abby]: So, they just want-- They're gonna always keep going with that conflict, because they're gonna want to win and it's just gonna go on and on and on.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, with no resolution.

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[Abby]: Uh huh

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[Kyle]: Yeah. I wanted to ask you, I know, Sara, I’m asking a lot of these questions.

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[Sara]: You are.

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[Kyle]: Because--

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[Sara]: You're asking all the questions

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[Kyle]: I know I am asking all the questions. I want to give you a moment to ask a question. Do you have a question in your mind right now for Abby? If you don't, I have another one.

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[Sara]: I’ll just ask the next one.

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[Kyle]: Okay, okay, that's okay. Okay. In light of that, okay? I was thinking you have always like-- Just for all the listeners to know, Abby was kind of a catalyst for me in particular, more so than you, Sara, to really grow and change in this parenting approach, because Abby was-- Had big emotions and still does have big, big feelings and as a little kid, I didn't know how to handle that. As a little kid, I know I was told to shut those down and I wanted her to-- I think she's bringing up a lot of this win-lose thing, because as a little kid it was a lot of win-lose and I was gonna win and she was going to lose, I wanted to shut it down. So, there was a lot of times we battled, right? When you were little, you know? Especially about sleep and about stuff like that, you know? We'd be yelling at each other.

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[Abby]: About holding hands to cross the street.

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[Kyle]: That's right. Sometimes I get upset at you about that, right? It's okay and so, when you have big feelings. Let me ask you, what do we do now that helps you with your big feelings?

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[Abby]: I’d say that something that you're-- It's very different what big feelings look like whenever you're little, compared to whenever you're big.

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[Abby]: And lots of times whenever you get big, you kind of get from society like “okay. Well, it's all right to have big feelings whenever you're like, four, but once you're past like, four, it's kind of too much. Like, no one wants to handle your big feelings” and I feel like a lot of kids after they get that message, they kind of just give up on having big feelings. They just kind of are like “okay, I’ll do whatever you say” or they have feelings and they don't say them, they just-- Or they say them to themselves in private. They'll be like, yelling at their pillow or something, explaining to their pillow why they're so mad and that, I feel like is something that kids in society today get that message a lot, because it's like “oh, but your little sister does that still, why do you need to do that?”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, “grow up”. Yeah, “hide those, we don't want to see those”.

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[Abby]: Well, and the problem is a lot of kids want to grow up, a lot of kids want to be bigger or want to be older whenever they're little and so, they get from society that the message of growing up, means just having no issues.

[Kyle]: Yeah, no problems.

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[Abby]: You never fight with people; you never do anything wrong. You just do everything right, you're all-- And then if you do what everyone else says, you're never wrong. That's something you learn, like you're never wrong according to society and so, I feel like that's definitely a hard message from today and so, I feel like that's something that you guys have done great, is that sometimes kids are trying to-- And they want to share their feelings, but they know how and they know how to say it, they just feel like if they say it, you're just gonna-- You're gonna take their phone away, you're gonna do whatever--

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[Kyle]: Yeah. “Sick of being disrespectful, they're being rude or they're talking back or--”

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[Abby]: Yes, exactly, and so, like sometimes you feel like as a kid, like “I can't share my feelings, everyone's gonna judge me for my feelings, everyone's gonna judge me for having feelings other than whatever the group has”.

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[Abby]: And so, I feel like that's something you guys have done really good, especially with the like, you guys put us to bed at night, it's really nice because sometimes I feel like kids have this message from society and so, you feel like you can't say anything and so, whenever your parents like, they pull you to bed or they have time with you, you have time to even say that without society being there to judge you and so, I feel like that is a really helpful thing that you guys do is, just knowing that you guys will be there to put us to bed if we have something that we need to say, we know there's a time, we know there's something coming, so we don't feel like we need to stuff it. We can just hold it there, open-handedly and bring it to you guys whenever you guys put us to bed or whenever you guys have that time you plan with us.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, a time we've created space. Maybe it's bedtime, maybe it's us going out one-on-one to get a smoothie or something but, you know we're going to create space for you then to share those with us, right?

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[Abby]: And sometimes kids don't choose to show those things and that’s also a big thing is, if you get mad at your kid for not sharing those things, they’re not gonna want to share them because they’re going to be like “Oh, so if she finds out I’m not sharing them, then she's just gonna get mad at me”.

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[Abby]: So, they don't feel like it's worth it to share, they don't feel like it's okay to share and so, I feel like that's the thing that's very important, is not judging for it and just being open to it, instead of being like “oh, you should have shared that earlier!”, just being glad about now that they shared it now, being glad that they were open to you now.

[Kyle]: Yeah, that's good, I love that. Yeah, so just being thankful that in that moment, they shared it rather than like “why didn't you share this earlier?”, right?

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[Abby]: Yeah, “why didn't you do it before?”

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[Kyle]: Yeah, “you should have shared this many weeks ago”. Yeah, yeah, but being “oh, thank you for telling me now, I’m glad you feel that way now”.

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[Kyle]: We do have one last question, okay? Because we want to get out of this hot room. One last question.

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[Sara]: I get to ask the last question. I’m gonna speak! All right. How do you think you want to parent someday yourself?

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[Abby]: Well, I like you guys. I mean, probably better, but like you guys. I want to whenever I grow up, I want to be able to like, be fun and know when to stop the fun, which is-- I know something is like, what you meaning like, my dad does really well is just being able to have fun and knowing like, you're not gonna be freaking out the whole time we're having fun. Like “oh, you gotta do this, I’ve gotta do this”, which is sometimes my mom has a hard time doing, because you guys both have really long to-do list. But so, I feel like that was something that I think is really nice, is knowing how to have fun and knowing when to relax and not just going and going and going.

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[Abby]: And I know I have a problem with this drilling stuff into the ground, but I like how you guys don't-- Like sometimes I tend to go and get mad at Brandon and then I’ll be like blah, blah, blah and I’ll go on for like 10 minutes and then Mom will be like “hey, let's like-- Let's talk this together and I’ll be like “let's keep going arguing!”. So, I feel like that's something that I feel like, I want to do better and I want to do like you guys and no, I want to homeschool because I feel like that's really nice. Because if I’m able to homeschool, that's really helpful because it expands your relationships with your kids to even school and it expands it to like, the hardest place.

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[Abby]: Because I feel like that's like a really hard thing in all of life, doing work and so, I feel like that's really nice to be able to expand it into school and being able to expand it into everyday life. So, you're not missing like, six hours of our life, eight hours of our life every day. So, I feel like that's really nice and I want to be like you guys with extracurriculars.

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[Abby]: Because I feel like you guys really support our extracurriculars and you guys want to like, help, make sure they go well, you want to support us in them and you want to support our decisions. Something I want to do better is probably whenever I parent, I want to be a little be like, more open to the changing of extracurriculars.

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[Kyle]: Oh, I see. That sounds good.

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[Abby]: Being more open to like, the changing of extracurriculars and being willing to support them in any extracurricular they choose, and realizing this is not the rest of their life.

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[Abby]: Like they're probably gonna do this extracurricular for like, two years. So, I mean, they're not gonna be like “oh yeah! Yeah, I’m gonna do this extracurricular until I’m 18 and then I’m gonna make that a college career and then I’m gonna go past that”. I mean, there's like a few movie stars and a few people out there that play sports that have done that and so, I mean, you're not like as a kid doing doctoring and becoming a doctor. If everyone did that, then we wouldn't ever have any doctors.

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[Abby]: So, I feel like that's something that is-- I really think I want to do better and yeah, I think that's like--

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[Kyle]: That's great, sounds like you'd be a phenomenal parent. Well, Abby, I want to say thank you for doing this. Was this hard?

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[Abby]: No, not really.

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[Kyle]: It wasn't? Okay?

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[Abby]: It was really easy; this is like basically just saying everything I think about what you guys do so... That is fine.

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[Kyle]: So, you enjoyed it?

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[Abby]: Yeah

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[Kyle]: Okay. Even though it was hot in the room?

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[Abby]: Yeah

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[Kyle]: Well, thank you so much for doing it.

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[Sara]: Yeah, thank you.

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[Kyle]: And I and I hope this really helps some of the listeners who just had questions like, what's this like to you. Our hope has always been since we started this with Abby at a young age is, when you pour into these kids and teach them these skills at a young age, that we are excited about Abby turning into a teenager. We're excited about the teenage years, we're not dreading them, we're looking forward to them and seeing the beautiful human being, not only that she already is, but that she will continue to become. So, we're really excited to seeing that growth in her. So, hope this was helpful for you today and gave you some insights and just how we try to honestly and vulnerably live our lives with our kids. So, I hope you have a great day.

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[Sara]: Thanks for listening.

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