Episode 72

In Episode 72, Sara and Kyle, LPCs, discuss a question we hear a lot from parents, “When can I yell at the kids?” A lot of parents see it as an effective tool to get their child’s attention. It is also something we feel we need to do to keep them safe in dangerous situations. We delve into the topic of yelling to look at the positive and negative ways it can impact families.  

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[Kyle]: In today's podcast we're gonna touch on the topic of yelling. Man, I like to do it, I like to yell sometimes. We're going to see, is it good? Is it bad? Is it helpful? Should we do more of it or do less of it? We're going to talk about that today.

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[Kyle]: Hello, and welcome to episode 72 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.

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[Sara]: And I’m Sara.

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[Kyle]: And today we're going to talk about yelling. All right. Do you yell a lot, Sara?

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[Sara]: No. No, I can yell, but that's not really me.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and we want to talk about this topic, because Sara and I've been doing a lot of speaking lately. It's been a lot of fun and we lately, the last speaking event we got to do was a really fun marriage conference, where we got to talk about conflict increasing the intimacy in the marriage. So, conflict you're having with kids, you know, helping your marriage become stronger, you know? It was a lot of fun, wasn't it?

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[Kyle]: Yeah. So, we really enjoyed getting to talk to these couples, but out of that there came some questions and it seemed like one of the most common questions was about yelling, you know? And people really wanted to know “what's so bad about it? You know? Isn't there a time and place for yelling? You know?” and I want to delve into that topic today, but before we do, I really want to make sure, you know, everyone is aware that that we would love to do more speaking events. We've got two more coming up in April, I want to let you know about. There's a free one that's put on by Shepherd's Fold that we're doing on April 20th and that's at Daybreak Cafe here in Tulsa. So, it's a place where you can eat lunch and come and hear us speaking. We're going to be doing our third session and it's going to be on the essential skills you need as a parent. So, we're really excited about doing that one and then, we're going to be speaking at Sanctuary Church on the 29th. So, we're doing a three-hour event there, where we're going to be doing parenting with the lens of faith, parenting with the knowledge of science and then the essential skills of parenting and so, both of those events are going on in April.

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[Kyle]: So, if you want to know more about those events or know how to-- You know, come to those events, feel free to email us. Go to parentinglegacy.com, you can email us there from the website. You can also go to theartofraisinghumans.com. So, all these things are going on and if you have speaking events you'd like us to do throughout the country, we're excited to do those, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, more and more we're getting comfortable being on stage together and learning our rhythm, right?

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[Kyle]: And all we're doing basically, is what we're doing here on the podcast, just doing it there in front of parents and helping groups of people be better parents, you know?

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[Kyle]: Okay. So, today I want to talk about yelling, because I really think there is a misconception about yelling. I can be a yeller, right? Would you agree?

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[Kyle]: Yeah. I grew up in a home where yelling was a daily occurrence.

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[Kyle]: You too?

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[Sara]: No, I didn't, but I think that's really, really common. There's a lot of homes, even between different cultures or even states in the United States, where you live there's more likely to be-- They're like “that's, you know, how we are”.

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[Sara]: So, I think there is yelling very, very common.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. For me yelling was just the way you got hurt, you know? If you weren't yelling, typically the TV was louder than you. So, you needed to yell so somebody would actually hear you talk and if you weren't yelling, you probably didn't care about the thing you were talking about.

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[Sara]: Interesting. I hadn't heard all that before.

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[Kyle]: Yes, yeah. So, like when you got really animated and you started to yell.

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[Sara]: Yes, that was “I'm serious. If I really want to be heard, I need to yell--”

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[Kyle]: Yeah, if you weren't yelling, it meant you really didn't believe in your point. So, I don't know if there's listeners who are listening who can relate to that, but typically every conflict between my brothers and sisters, between my mom, between my dad, between those, typically yelling was the inevitable outcome in that conflict.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. So, whoever-- Especially as we got bigger, if you could yell louder, then you might win the conflict, you know? And you might dominate that argument. But sometimes these yelling times would go on for quite some time and to some extent, we'll get into this, I don't think all that was bad, you know? I mean, some of that I think really helped me in those moments of conflict, where we were passionately going back and forth, helped me fine-tune how today in a much calmer way, I present my thoughts. Because in those moments, it’s like-- It seemed like heated battles about, you know, ideas and conflicts and really gave me an opportunity to express them, right? Instead of just stuff them and just think them in my head. So, I don't think we-- In my family rarely that we just stuff it, we just always said it and expressed it, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, it was different for you?

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[Sara]: Very different.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. How was it different for you? How was yelling seen? I'm sure it happened occasionally in your house.

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[Sara]: Occasionally

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[Kyle]: And what was yelling used for in your house?

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[Sara]: To get attention, but it wouldn't been-- It would have been maybe siblings are mad, so during a fight maybe there was some raised voices and maybe if my parents, if we weren't listening, they might have raised their voice to get our attention.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and so, I think that's actually--

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[Sara]: Or for danger.

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[Sara]: I mean, honestly, we lived in the woods or we were in different places where sometimes trees were falling down. We were cutting down trees or tractors were running or you know, things like that-- People who can relate to certain situations, where it was definitely yelling to get people's attention to, you know, get them out of danger or to get them-- “Heads up!”, you know?

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[Kyle]: And I think, to your point, I think a lot of families who were asking this question at the marriage conference were wondering that. Like “don't you need to yell sometimes?”.

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[Kyle]: And so, we--

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[Sara]: That it could be a point where you have to raise your voice.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and that yelling isn't always bad.

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[Sara]: And I think even going back to what you were saying, real quick, I think there can be takeaways. So, if we're if we want to look at this and go “oh no! It's the end of the world, yelling is the end of the world”. We do want to just put out there right away, right? That you still could-- There was still something you took away from that.

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[Sara]: Now, was it all good? No, but it's not the end of the world, there's still some things that you learned from that experience.

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[Sara]: And so, there's just there that, both ends can exist.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and I tell you this, Sara. I think there were times-- Definitely in my home there was spanking, you know? There was a lot of, you know, punitive discipline used. As there was almost every house that I knew of, every friend I had, you know? And so, there were times where I'd rather get yelled at than get spanked, you know? I think there's other times I'd rather get spanked than get yelled at, because like, sometimes the spanking they did, it just-- They got it over like… That. It was done, you know?

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[Sara]: The yelling and the lecture could go on and on.

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[Kyle]: The yelling might go on for-- But what I grew to like more about the yelling, is I felt like I got heard, you know? So, at least in there, I got to say my piece, I got to speak up and that's actually what I really appreciated about my home, is it wasn't just my parents allowed to yell. So, that I was allowed to yell back, you know? And we yelled at each other and it wasn't just them yelling at me and me just taking it, you know? And so, to some extent, I found like that's a positive I took from it. That I think in some homes, it is just the parent gets to yell and the kid never gets to speak up and say their thing, you know? That it's almost like because they're bigger, they're the adults, they get to yell, but if the kids ever yell, they're in trouble.

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[Sara]: So, then could you have that ability that parents can communicate, children are heard and communicate as well without the yelling.

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[Kyle]: What!? Yes, I think that's totally possible. I just wanna-- I want to--

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[Sara]: So, you want to highlight that, the fact that both parties could communicate was great.

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[Sara]: And maybe that could be done without the yelling, but at least that part [Unintelligible]

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[Kyle]: I mean, obviously--

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[Sara]: Which is great.

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[Kyle]: This other thing you said sounds really good, it sounds like, obviously that's the home we want to create, you know?

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[Kyle]: But I want to relate to a lot of listeners and I think a lot of people were asking in that, is they-- You know, for instance, like coaches. I'm thinking of, you know, I played a lot of sports growing up and coaches yell and you see that on TV all the time. You see football coaches yelling and it looks like good things can happen, you know? Like sometimes a player it really screws up on the field and he loses it and somehow costs their team something, you know, some points or some penalty happens and you'll see the coach just go off on that player and I think most people watching are like “yes, exactly. You needed to do that, because you needed to get that player's attention. That player was being selfish, he was only thinking about himself” and so, I think lots of people see that and go-- They don't want a coach who's just like “oh it's okay, you know?”. That they feel like the coach who doesn't have this big strong reaction, that that coach who's just quiet, it almost seems-- It almost seems like he's saying it was okay that that happened.

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[Kyle]: What are you thinking? Your face is looking all confused.

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[Sara]: Well, I'm thinking you can assertively communicate that that wasn't okay.

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[Sara]: That [Unintelligible] it too. I either need to yell so people know that I really care.

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[Sara]: Or I'm just quiet and I don't care.

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[Sara]: But that’s--

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[Kyle]: It almost it almost seems like you're being passive, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, I think a lot of people think a coach who isn't yelling, is a coach who doesn't really give a rip about what happened on the field.

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[Sara]: But it doesn't actually have to be just this or that.

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[Kyle]: That's what your face was?

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[Sara]: Yes. My face is “well, it's not that I yell so I care or I'm quiet and I don't care and I'm passive, right? There's this other thing that exists, there's a third option”.

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[Kyle]: And you know, the kids have wanted me to coach every one of their teams. So, they've wanted me-- They're like “Dad, we're playing soccer. You like soccer, you're good at coaching soccer. Coach my team” and the reason why I don't, is because somehow wired in my brain is to show them that I care, means I've got to yell at them.

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[Sara]: That third option doesn't come on the mind for you.

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[Sara]: In moments of passion and big experiences and stuff, you revert to that.

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[Sara]: Well, you were-- You know, your whole childhood was this, so that wiring gets real strong in there.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, I don't even remember, but I'm assuming a lot of my coaches yelled, because that's like exactly-- Or maybe it's just my personality. I tend to think in order to show these kids I'm taking this serious, I've got to yell. Even I know when I'm watching other coaches who are coaching other teams, ones who are really quiet, who may even be successful, I still wonder if they actually care. Because I can't see-- I feel like in order to care, you have to express it in a very demonstrative way, you know? And so, sometimes that can-- In the parenting aspect that can happen too, where I feel like in a moment, the kids have to know how much I care about this and--

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[Sara]: And that's the way it's expressed.

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[Kyle]: Yes, and even like, I believe in a weird way, the way my parents were showing me they cared was by yelling, you know? I think they did care. I think in order for my parents to not have yelled when I was a kid, it would have been them not caring about something and there were things that will happen in life that they didn't care about and we didn't yell about those things.

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[Sara]: Yeah, and that's sometimes just where we're at, that's what we know to do, so that's the tool we pull out. We pull out our yelling tools.

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[Sara]: And we’re like “in this moment that's the tool I see sitting in the toolbox, so that's what I'm gonna use”.

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[Kyle]: Well, and I want to point out. I know our daughter, our youngest, went to a coaching clinic just last night and this coach wasn't yelling at all and a lot was being learned.

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[Sara]: And you think he cared?

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[Kyle]: I thought he did care.

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[Sara]: Wow!

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[Sara]: So, he cared, he's very passionate about soccer actually.

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[Sara]: As we talked to him, we learned and he showed that he cared quite a bit with zero yelling.

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[Kyle]: And I'm sure everybody listening can relate to this too; we have had coaches who yelled.

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[Kyle]: And I actually didn't like them. So, it wasn't like-- It wasn't like I was like “yeah! Way to yell at my kid!”. I was kind of like “Hey! Who are you to yell at my kid!? Back it off, man!”, you know? And I could see the effect it was having on our kids.

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[Kyle]: That when they yelled-- Oh, sure, sometimes they got their attention. Sometimes it made them go “giddy up! Let's go! I gotta get this--” Or for Abby was like “okay, I'll focus now”, but it didn't teach them the skill to do that thing better. It just taught them--

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[Sara]: Yeah. Sometimes I think it creates more chaos too--

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[Kyle]: And I think it creates more anxiety.

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[Sara]: Because they're almost right there like, looking back at the coach and you can see their actual focus and stuff sort of break down a little bit. Maybe they're doing that one thing he just yelled about, but their overall presence on the field is shaken.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and I think everybody who's had a kid in this situation, you've probably noticed this. I've noticed when I've yelled at my kids and they're playing a sport, if I get their attention through the yelling, sometimes it just causes more confusion and chaos because they can't really hear from the sideline. Like, every coach will tell you that.

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[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, too much yelling it’s noise.

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[Kyle]: That there's too much-- Yeah, they don't know who you're talking to. But when I did get their attention, it did get them to do that thing right then, but then I had to keep doing that over and over and over throughout the game.

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[Kyle]: It wasn't like it just changed and then, they're like the rest of the game they did it, you know? That the times that has happened, it has been when they've come over to the sideline and I've been able to talk to them in a calm way.

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[Sara]: Giving them instructions, yeah.

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[Kyle]: And then they're able and what we know about the brain science, is they're more likely to be in the prefrontal cortex to then receive that information, whereas the yelling, typically it's gonna ramp up their emotion and make them less likely to understand exactly what you're wanting them to do and do it effectively.

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[Sara]: Yeah, it takes some-- Out of the part of their brain that's the best at thinking, reason, logic, creativity, puts them in the brain of like “oh no!”. You know, that amygdala gets fired off and so, all that goes on and they've done studies. I was just looking up in preparation for this, I was reviewing all the studies they've done and I did think it was interesting. They've done studies, they took a group of 13-year-olds and they compared-- Over an entire year they watched these kids and one group were in households where they were yelled at and one group was in households where they weren't yelled at, and the ones that were yelled, they had higher rates of anxiety and depression.

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[Sara]: And they found that the yelling houses, they had to do more yelling over time or you would hope that you yelled and then they would never do it again, because they want to avoid you yelling, but that actually wasn't what they found. They found that yelling yielded more yelling. To get the same result you had to keep going with it and the behaviors were worsened over time, versus the households that didn't have as much yelling and used more instruction.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, what you’re saying--

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[Sara]: So, going back to your coaching, you had to keep yelling to get the kids to do this stuff on the field--

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[Kyle]: And even what's even more ridiculous about me, Sara, is I see kids all the time in the practice, right? Who have these situations with coaches. None of them like it. You know, all of them say they don't like being yelled at.

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[Sara]: Yeah. I don’t like--

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[Kyle]: Many of them have actually told me they don't want their parents to come, because their parents yell the whole time and every one of them have told me, it makes it harder for them to play because it's confusing, you know? They hear the coach yelling one thing, their parents yelling another thing. It seems like nobody is pleased with what they're doing and so, instead of actually-- We all know good athletics comes from muscle memory and it comes from actually not being caught up in your head.

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[Kyle]: It comes from you just doing what you've practiced. Good coaching happens in the practice field and then comes out and so, when they're hearing all the yelling, they get caught up in their own head and it makes them double-- Like, have to think twice about the next thing you're going to do.

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[Sara]: Yeah, it sounds like they need to go more from that instinct.

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[Sara]: What you said of the muscle memory of what they've been practicing and doing, trying to stay in your head like “now I need to move this and now I need to do that, you're a worse player”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and I'm using sports as this almost metaphor, Sara, because I think it's such a microcosm of life, you know? Because there are coaches all over the NFL, the MLS, you know, the Premier League, the NBA, who never yell. They're just not yellers and they're successful, you know? I think the most popular one that's more known is Tony Dungy and now, Tony Dungy, you know, won the Super Bowl and Tony Dungy was one who was known for not yelling, for not cussing at his players, for not-- So, he wasn't a guy who thought he needed to do that with his players and he obviously cared and he obviously wanted to win. But for him, he thought yelling undermined his success, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, I want to frame the conversation in light of that, that we're not saying yelling is bad or good, you know? Yelling is a technique you should never use, because even in your case, you talked about how if you pinpoint what yelling is good for, is quickly getting somebody's attention. So, in times of safety or danger--

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[Sara]: Well, and that's actually-- And you want to save it for that.

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[Sara]: If you do yell all the time and the kids are like “Ugh. Yeah, yeah, yelling and yelling”.

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[Kyle]: And everything's an emergency.

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[Sara]: Yes, yeah, but it-- Even my kids have sometimes I-- When they play with a lot of yelling and one time, we had a fire in our backyard and I heard yelling, but I was like “oh, it's yelling, you know? Whatever” and it wasn't--

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[Sara]: They kept saying “Fire! Fire!” and then--

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[Sara]: And there was a fire and eventually-- But it took me a moment to realize “no, this yelling actually was important”.

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[Sara]: And so, you do want to save the yelling for times where it is important. You really need your child's attention.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, danger is there.

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[Sara]: Yes, something is there. If they're used to you yelling all the time, you lose that time before they realize “oh no! This is a different kind of yelling than all the other yelling you're doing!”.

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[Kyle]: Well, and I want to get to that, I want to get to there are consequences for yelling. I'm saying like, we yell, there are consequences to that and you named some of them and I want to get to those in a second. I do want to say before that though, that there are times to yell and if you, like you said, if you overuse that tool-- It's just a technique, it's just a tool, you know? If you overuse it, over time it it's going to become ineffective, you know? And you need it for these very important emergency times, you know? You need it even at times where maybe the kid is like, overwhelmed with emotion and they just are like “what am I gonna do!? What am I doing!?--”. You just need them to like, focus, you know? And so, you may-- Because you don't do it often, when you do it, they go “whoa! They must be really serious”, you know?

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[Kyle]: But I think everybody listening this podcast, if you have been yelled at, I know when I was yelled at as a kid, eventually it becomes like a Charlie Brown, you know, thing or just “blah blah blah blah blah. When are you gonna be--? I get it, you're mad. I got it; you know? You don't need to yell at me” and so, I would ask the listeners if yelling is something you do or your spouse does or-- How does it feel when you yell? You know, I know when I do it, it doesn't feel good. I always think I wish there was a better way to do this. There is a little bit of blaming, like “I didn't want to yell, but you made me yell, you know? If you just listen to me, I wouldn't have done that”.

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[Kyle]: But then also, how does it feel to be yelled at? You know, if you had a boss who was yelling at you as much as you're yelling at your kids, would that be effective? Would you want to work with that boss? I hope you wouldn't. I hope you say “I actually want a boss who believes in me, can talk to me. You know, at times maybe I do need someone to like, challenge me, but that can look like--”

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[Sara]: That’s-- Right. No, it doesn't have to include yelling.

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[Kyle]: No, it can be firm. The words I wrote down is there are bosses and coaches and parents that can be firm and direct, but also kind. I mean, and actually, I think that's more powerful. I think when you see somebody out of control and just yelling, it's just like “what is going on?”, you know?

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[Sara]: It distracts from the message.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, it gets very confusing. Even at the soccer games, there was one soccer game we went to, where a parent on the other team and lots of parents who have kids in sports and a parent on our side were just yelling at each other and it everyone just-- You can feel it in the air, you know? Everyone's like “whoa, what is going on here?”, you know? No one's [Unintelligible] any of that, everyone's just like it becomes very heated and the kids all get confused. “Why are these parents yelling at each other? What's going on?” and you sense like it's causing-- It's causing this ripple that's making everyone feel uneasy, you know? And we're not going to be as receptive. So, like with the boss, we wouldn't be as receptive to learn whatever the boss is wanting us to learn, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, I would love for you to reflect on that and then, another question is, what does yelling say about me? You know, what does it say about us? Possibly if we are yelling.

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[Sara]: Well, I think that in that moment, something has-- Often something has triggered us. So, they're something that the child said or did has triggered something either from our own childhood or just in us. It could also mean maybe “I'm yelling because I have an unmet need or want” and I'm feeling like “oh no, this thing is not taken care of, this thing's not going to be taken care of”. For example, we can't be late. We're headed somewhere and we need to not be late. So, my need is to be on time because this thing is starting and they're depending on us or whatever the situation is, getting to school on time and we know the consequences of that. So, I'm yelling at you because we have this thing. My need isn't met, my want isn't met, so I feel like I've got to escalate that because I'm worried and I'm scared in that moment. Scare is kind of a big word, but I'm worried about that moment, so I'm going to yell to get this thing done.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, and so, if I'm honest with myself and that's all I'd ask listeners to do is, when you do yell, to just reflect that evening on what did that yelling say about me, you know?

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[Sara]: Yeah, what was going on inside of you?

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[Kyle]: And I would typically say almost 100% of the time, mine falls into feeling like a situation is out of control and I need to control it.

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[Kyle]: Feeling like I'm powerless to change a moment like, especially like, on the on time thing. I feel powerless, the kids are not moving as fast as I want, so I'm gonna yell at them to make them go quicker. But it also feels like the person isn't listening to me, you know? Like I've tried to talk-- I think a lot of people that's what it is, like “if you were listening to me, I wouldn't yell at you”, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, I feel like I've got to yell at you to make you listen to me.

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[Sara]: Yeah, you're being dismissed in some way or you're not mattering in that moment, so you're trying to make that matter.

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[Kyle]: Well. So, then I want to end the conversation with this, Sara, is just understanding that yell is just a tool, typically used to get someone's attention instantly or to cause some kind of movement or change to happen instantly. It's not good or bad, it's just a technique. But every technique you use has consequences and so, you named a few, you know? So, I want to name a few consequences of homes that yell. I mean, I know we talked about kids just eventually just ignore it, they no longer hear. You know, they-- Or another one is, Sara, lots of parents say “the kid won't do something until I yell at them”. So, lots of kids I know, they're playing video games and Mom and Dad will say “get off it. Get off it. Get off it!” and then the kid knows “now I gotta get off it”.

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[Kyle]: But even though I was told two or three times. So, the parents will say “I'm tired of saying it three or four times”, but the kid knows you don't really mean it until you yell, right? Almost back to what I said “I don't feel like you care until you yell”. Until then, it's kind of like a question.

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[Sara]: That's kind of what you learned.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. “You want to get off it?”

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[Sara]: So, you’re like “Oh, I get it now, we have to yell in order to care, okay”.

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[Kyle]: Yes, and the other consequence you said, I think it does. Just like in a work environment, it will create a more anxious home, it would create kids who were just more worried and on edge, because they never knew at what moment they might get yelled at, you know? And if I'm honest too, the same situation I might not yell at depending upon my mood that day, you know?

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[Kyle]: If I was having a great day and I wasn't stressed and I wasn't rushed, I wouldn't yell that day.

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[Sara]: Yeah, and I think that's what we as parents or I mean, this kind of a side track, but we want to take-- If we can, catch ourselves in that moment to take a breath and go “what's going on inside of me?”. If you can’t in that moment, take time later to do it.

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[Sara]: But “what am I feeling here and what else could I do?” and kind of release yourself from this “being the emergency” that you think it is. I think we're yelling in cases of emergency or to be heard, big moments and--

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[Kyle]: Yeah, so good. Well, and then inevitably, yelling just isn't a sustainable solution, okay? So, it's not a sustainable solution, it's just another form of external control, okay? And not to say external control is never necessary, sometimes it is. So, once again, if somebody's in danger and you quickly need someone's attention, like you said, when the backyard was on fire. Thank you for not telling everybody it was me who actually lit it on fire. But when the backyard was on fire, I needed your attention quickly, you know? So, I was yelling, right?

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[Kyle]: And so, externally controlling the kids through yelling. We've seen it with other kids, we see at the practice or kids I saw at school, even kids we see our kids play with, that when they're yelled at a lot, those kids don't listen until they're yelled at, you know?

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[Kyle]: They don't believe it's their job to control themselves, they believe it's your job to control them and they know it's time to get control when you yell at them.

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[Sara]: And they're quick to yell, they're a lot quicker to yell because just like you, they learn “oh, this is what we've got to do”.

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[Kyle]: “When you're serious and it means something, you yell”.

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[Sara]: And then, they often get in trouble for yelling.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and I would say it's specifically, when we've traveled overseas and come back to America, it's pretty interesting. Like, when we're in some other countries, there wasn't as much yelling and we came here-- I think it is kind of a cultural thing too, where I know as soon as we flew back from one country, we came into Los Angeles and everybody was yelling at the airport. Everybody was like “oh my gosh!”. It was so-- It was so apparent. So, some of it is, I think in our culture-- Even as a school counselor I saw this, parents didn't think anything was going to happen until they yelled at the teacher or until they yelled at the principal, you know? And unfortunately, it seemed like that was true, you know? And I think that needs to change in our society.

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[Kyle]: I'd rather have a society of people who don't think you need to yell all the time to be heard, you know? That you have people actually care about your concerns and so, really good customer service people are able to help take your yelling and help support you without yelling back at you and they're able to tell you they care without yelling at you, you know?

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[Kyle]: So, I hope this helps kind of expand your understanding of yelling and how that technique is used in some homes and for you to own it. How do you want to use yelling in your home? Do you want it to be a constant source of external control? Or do you want to use it as just a thing in your tool belt to use in really necessary moments where there's real emergencies or you really need to help, you know, get your kids attention in that moment? And I just think that's a better path and as a kid who grew up in home where there's a lot of yelling, I know I'm trying to change it. So, it's a work in progress and I'm always trying to reflect on why I'm yelling in moments and how I could have communicated in a more kind, but firm direct way.

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[Sara]: And we're better able to do that when we take good care of ourselves.

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[Sara]: If we're stressed out, if we're tired, hungry, worried about getting places on time. So, the other side of that is, just if as we take care of ourselves, we have less of a need to yell.

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[Kyle]: That's great. So, we're so happy to have you listening to us today. Please share this episode; I know a lot of families want more information about yelling. We'd love for you to put a comment or you know, give us five stars and continue sending us-- If this kind of stuff is helpful to you, we'd love to give feedback, we'd love to get other ideas for other podcasts, because we really enjoy helping and supporting families. So, we hope you have a great day.

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[Sara]: Thanks for listening.