Episode 65

[Kyle]: In today's podcasts we're gonna talk about resistance and how futile it is.

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[Kyle]: Hello, and welcome to episode 65 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.

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[Sara]: And I’m Sara.

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[Kyle]: And yeah, what we wanted to do over these next several podcasts, I hope-- If you joined us in 2023, what Sara and I have really felt passionate about doing, is we're wanting to start out with some of the basics. Some of the basic foundational things we wanted to shift in our parenting or feel like we needed to shift in our parenting, to really become the parents we wanted to become.

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[Kyle]: And so, in the earlier podcast we talked about the different styles, we talked about there’s different way of doing things with high expectations, high support and so, I’ve just been noticing as we've been interacting with parents on a day-to-day basis, as we've been helping them and you know, at the private practice or even you know, just casual conversations. I think this one comes up a lot, Sara, this idea about acceptance and resistance. Acceptance and resistance, such a big foundational concept that I know I didn't believe when we first started having kids and slowly over time, as I’ve accepted this truth, it's really shifted everything for me.

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[Sara]: Yeah, I feel like it's one that is a little harder to wrap your brain around, but then when you actually just give it a shot, you think “oh, yeah, this actually feels better and I can see something happening”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and as we dive into specifically what we're talking about, I just want to remind you Sara and I, I mean, we're really excited. We have a full plate of speaking opportunities in the month of February and going into March and so, I want to continue to throw out there: if you have any kind of idea, a place, a faith-based place or a school or a parenting group or just a bunch of friends that come together, whatever it is that you might think you would want to invite us into, feel free to reach out. You can go to our website at parentinglegacy.com and you can email us there and there, you also find other resources. We've got different types of videos we offer. So, I would love for you to comment. You know, definitely give us five stars, that's always fun to get. So, as we dive into this, just be thinking about us if you want us to do any speaking, because we're excited about doing that.

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[Kyle]: Okay. So, this concept, Sara, when I was writing it down and I just was trying to think “what some foundational things I really want to give parents?”. It was this idea that I see happening over and over again, almost all the reasons why parents come to see us for help, is because they're resisting what is.

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[Sara]: Right, “something needs to stop”.

 

[Sara]: Right? “We have got to halt this behavior, we need something different, make this go away”.

 

[Kyle]: And they've tried many different ways to stop that behavior.

 

[Sara]: Yes

 

[Kyle]: But it doesn't seem to stop it.

 

[Kyle]: You know? And it makes me think of that quote, that that's true, that is “what you resist will persist”. You know, it seems like the more and more you resist something in your mind, the more it will get bigger and before, I want to hear your thoughts on that something resistance isn't. You know, I was thinking of this for all of the maybe nerds listening to this podcast. I love Star Trek, love Star Trek growing up and so, of course, everyone who's listening to this who loves Star Trek, knows the first thing you think of with resistance is resistance is futile, you know? It's the Borg are gonna come assimilate you, you know? And so, when I first-- When I think of resistance, I think of like, this overpowering force like the Borg, who is saying “don't resist us because we're gonna overwhelm you and take you over”, okay?

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[Kyle]: And I want to clarify that's not what I’m talking about. So--

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[Sara]: Just in case you were thinking of Star Trek.

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[Kyle]: Yes, unless resistance is futile came to your mind, that's not what we're talking about, what we're talking about-

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[Sara]: Okay. I think that was really helpful to clear up--

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[Kyle]: I want to really clear that, because a lot of people I think as soon as we said this, they were thinking of the board. But what you resist will persist, okay? So, this thing that once you start getting in your mind “I want my kid to stop doing that” or “I want my wife to stop doing that”, you'll find it persists, it starts to grow and get bigger and bigger.

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[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. I think it's even true of yourself. “I want to stop doing this. I’m not going to do that anymore. I’m going to quit this” and then you find-- I mean, obviously one really big obvious one is dieting, you know? “I’m not gonna eat any more chips” or “I’m not gonna have sugar for--”, you know, whatever. “I’m not gonna have sugar for a while” and then, all of a sudden, it seems like sugar's everywhere and you're thinking about sugar and that's actually true, that is in your brain.

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[Sara]: And the same thing applies to be behaviors. If we say “I want my kid to stop having temper tantrums” or--

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[Kyle]: “Stop fighting with their siblings”, yeah.

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[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, then your brain is going to notice it all the time. It just-- It becomes actually-- Your brain hears “fighting, kids are fighting” or “they're having temper tantrums” or something like that and your brain actually goes into gear of seeing it more often and looking for it and even maybe when it's not even there or that big of a deal, your brain is so hyper aware of it and looking for it so much, is gonna seem bigger, see more, seem worse and even carrying that to your child, it won't actually work to tell them to stop, just like it doesn't work when we tell ourselves to stop and quit.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and another way I’m thinking of it, Sara, the way resistance-- What resist will persist is lots of times, parents of the kid is talking “disrespectfully” to them, they will then come back and yell at them or you know, they would-- If anybody was watching that interaction, it would look disrespectful as well, right? So, that I will actually start to do the very behavior that I’m wanting to resist, you know?

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[Kyle]: Like, I’ve given that example before about gratitude. There's been many times where I thought the kids were being ungrateful and then my response or reaction to them, lacked all gratitude, you know? I was not grateful for them being alive and healthy and that-- I wanted them to change, so I could then appreciate them more and that's the exact same thing they were saying, is they wanted that moment to change so they could appreciate more-- So, the lack of gratitude, I resisted that and then it persisted. So, I began to actually do the behavior I was trying to stop in the kids.

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[Sara]: And our brains just start to wire around those things and that's what happens, it starts “oh, we need to build more wires around this thing. Okay, all right, let's make more connections. More connection, guys, let's look for it” and it builds it instead of actually releasing it or bringing any change.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and then Dr. Becky Bailey would say “when we are doing resistance, one, it turns me against you”, okay? So, now I’m opposed to you. It starts to cause me to shift down my brain, okay? So, if you haven't heard our discussion about the brain science, we do that back in our first few episodes, because it's really important to understand how the brain works and when we start to resist, we actually start to like, go down. Dr. Siegel calls it “going downstairs”, you know? Kind of down the elevator.

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[Kyle]: And we go to a lower more-- Like, this part of us that's all--

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[Sara]: Primal, it’s more instinctual.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. Some people call like the lizard brain or the monkey brain, whatever it is. This kind of like, fight, flight or freeze part of us that just wants to just overwhelm and intimidate, you know?

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[Sara]: Yeah, it's more emotionally controlled, but not in a helpful way. Emotions have wonderful, you know, things they bring us, but in this case, it's not. It's you've lost some problem solving and just a lot of those other skills that you bring to the table during a problem or you want to.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, so you get that and some people in that, as they're slipping down to that brain stem, they will as they resist, get bigger and bigger and bigger to intimidate, to stop that behavior they're wanting, right?

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[Kyle]: Other people will just shut down and completely just, surrender to it and just say--

[Sara]: Check out.

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[Kyle]: That’s right, yeah, yeah, and it's not acceptance at all, it's still resistance. They're just saying “this is never going to change”.

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[Kyle]: So, I’m just gonna like, resign myself to this is how my life is.

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[Sara]: Right, and it's still in that other part of the brain, you-- The moment you engage in that, you're your brain goes “Oh no! Oh no! Something's going on here! Let's get--” and it goes down into this-- As if you saw a bear or something like that, you know? It's ready to attack.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. So, the more I resist-- The way I see it, Sara, we either start to shut down or we blow up, okay? And the only outcome that I can see. is I need that other person to change because I don't feel like I can change it, you know? When I’m constantly resisting-- It might not be people, it might be a feeling I’m having, it might be circumstances in my life. Maybe things are hard financially, maybe there's illness or sickness going on and I know-- I mean, like you see people [Unintelligible] they'll just resist being sick or resist-- You know, like their body's saying “take a rest”, you know?

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[Kyle]: Do some self-care or go to-- And “No! I cannot do that! I will resist!” and they just keep resisting and pushing, pushing until--

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[Sara]: In a lot of places that's applauded, right? You go the extra. It's almost-- Yeah.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and then what happens when you keep doing it, eventually your body he will like, force you to shut down.

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[Kyle]: Because you cannot keep doing that, you know? And so, as you're trying to-- I mean, as I’m thinking of feelings, I’m thinking how many times people come in the session who are resisting anxiety, they’re resisting fear, they're resisting these things in hopes that it will change it, but they're really not resolving it, you know? They're just pushing it down, they're just getting less aware of it, but it's still-- It's almost like I guess-- I mean, another kind of Dr. Becky Bailey-- I think this is her like, imagery, is-- Or maybe Markham said this, but it was like: on your car if your engine light was blinking and you just like “yeah, I don't want to see that”, so you just resist it and put--

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[Sara]: Put some duct tape over.

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[Kyle]: Put like a black-- So, I couldn't see it anymore, right? So, I resisted it, but it never changed.

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[Sara]: No, it's still there.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, it's not until I accept it that I can actually do something about it.

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[Sara]: And I think that's a really great example of when it's so-- I don't know, kind of just was harder for me to think, to just wrap my brain around this and to think “wow, really? This is how it works?”. Because anxiety or those things are good examples of times where it actually can get bigger and build up the more you resist it. It's the moment you can turn towards it, that it then can actually resolve, diminish and get better.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. The reason why I think this is tricky, Sara, because sometimes it seems like we can resist it and things do change. So, kids throw in a tantrum, I get really mad at yelling and then the tantrum stops.

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[Kyle]: For some kids, right? And then you go “cool, look at that”.

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[Sara]: Or you walk away, right?

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[Sara]: You just leave them.

 

[Sara]: They're throwing their fit on the ground and you walk away.
 

[Kyle]: Yeah, and so, I never really resolved anything, but it looks like by resisting what was happening, you know? I didn't accept the emotion, I just resisted the emotion, you know? The kid was feeling scared and I told the kid not to feel scared, “get over it”, you know? just by resisting it and so, there are times it looks like it's working, but what we know about emotion is unless it is resolved, unless it gets an opportunity to actually be regulated and worked through, it just stays there, it just gets stuffed somewhere else.

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[Sara]: And there's lots. If the listeners haven't heard of that, there's lots of books and things about how the body keeps score and holds those-- You know, usually these are associated with memories, so I’m kind of putting things together. But the memories, the feelings, the emotions, those do store inside our bodies and they don't go away like, if we just think-- If we don't look at it or talk about it or pay much attention to it, it eventually goes away because things calm down.

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[Sara]: So, we're-- So, it looks like it went away, but it wasn't really processed.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, and the one I’m thinking about that was really hard for me, Sara, when I was working through this, was our kids not sleeping. So, especially when they were little babies, I mean, out of the three of them, I think all of them were pretty frequent waker-uppers, right? And I just-- I remember being there and I feel so almost embarrassed to say it, but like almost like, wanting to scream to the heavens. Like “put this baby just sleep!”, you know? And I was getting so mad, and what's crazy about, now that I know the brain science, I was actually making it harder for them to relax and go to sleep, because I was sending all of this like, angry energy to this little baby who like “what is this?”.

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[Sara]: Probably was in a growth spurt.

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[Kyle]: Yes, yes, yeah, and the baby's feeling all of this and even though I wasn't like, yelling at the baby, inside I was so mad, I was just like-- I wanted to resist this, I wanted the kid to just fall asleep, you know? And I wanted them to learn how to sleep through the night and wake up exactly when I wanted them to wake up and the stinkin' kids wouldn't do that.

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[Kyle]: You know, and that led to a lot of angry moments and I look back though, by our third-- I mean, it took me that long, but by our third, I started accepting it more.

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[Kyle]: And I look back at those times with her, there were some really sweet moments at like, 3 A.M and I was exhausted and I wish she would have been sleeping. But instead, I’d be holding her and I’d have these crazy thoughts like “I guess this is how I learn to love her”, you know? “I guess this is how she knows I love her, is I go through this with her” and I just-- It hit me. With the other two kids I just wanted to stop, but in these sweet moments I’m like “I don't actually mind this. It's not that big a deal, we'll get through this” and maybe that's part of what it was, I started knowing “we would get through this”, you know?

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[Sara]: Yeah, you've been-- You survived it twice.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, you too!

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[Sara]: You can survive a third time.

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[Kyle]: We'll do it. So, maybe it helped me accept it more, but I noticed how I probably missed a lot of sweet moments with the other two, because I was resisting it and so, I realized, Sara, when I’m resisting, I start taking the behavior personally, you know?

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[Kyle]: I start imagining that this little baby or this kid is like, plotting against me and they're doing this-- And I’m telling you, Sara, that's how I know when I’m working with parents that they're resisting, is they will start to tell me a story about everything the kid's doing, they're doing it on purpose.

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[Sara]: Well, and that shows you when you're in that part of your brain too, you do feel that way, right? Your brain says “we're under attack!”, you know? And that's what part of the resistance is, the shutting down or the getting bigger and getting upset. Whatever your response is, it's your brain going thinking you're under attack and so, that is personal, right?

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[Sara]: If you met a bear in the woods, that'd be like “the bear's gonna eat me, it's personal” and it's the same thing with those resistant moments. It feels you’re adversarial, you're against each other, so it is-- I mean, enemy is a strong word, but when you're in that moment with your child, it's you against them and them against you, who's gonna win? Or you know, those kinds of words even start to come up and “where's the power? Who has the power?”. all those kinds of dynamics are there, which are dynamics of “you’re under attack”. It’s personal.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. So, what we want to shift to is acceptance.

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[Kyle]: Okay. So, first I want to start with what acceptance isn't, Sara, and I want your thoughts on this. I put down acceptance isn't just giving up, you know? Like, you gave that example of “I think a lot of times parents think they are being accepting because they just walk away and just don't give any attention to the thing”, you know?

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[Kyle]: They just like “yeah, if he [Unintelligible], I just-- I don't care, I just walk away”. So, that's not acceptance, that's still resisting.

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[Sara]: Yeah, that’s shutting down. Yeah, a there's a difference and I think you can feel that difference inside of you. Because though you may get bigger, I can sometimes go into that space of just “I’m out”, you know?

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and I also want to clarify it's also not passivity, it's not permissiveness, it's not-- Acceptance isn't like “oh, I just-- I don't think my kid can ever do that thing I’m asking”, you know? Or “my kid's gonna talk to me however they're going to talk to me” or “my kid's gonna hit me if they're gonna hit me”. That's not what I mean by acceptance.

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[Sara]: Yeah, it's not “I accept this moment and we're just gonna keep right at this space”.

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[Kyle]: That’s right, yeah. So, I want to clarify that's not what it is, because typically, I think that's what they think the opposite is. I think they think either I’m fighting against my kid or I’m just letting my kid dominate me, okay? And so, that's why I thought this was a good podcast after we've done that talk about this isn't authoritarian, this isn't permissive, okay? We're talking about high expectations, high support. So, acceptance is more like this, like with the sleeping thing. Is once I could accept that this is a baby thing, babies take time to learn how to sleep.

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[Kyle]: Once I knew that and my I got realistic expectations that someday we'll get there, someday I know my kid will get there, I could relax and I could actually just enjoy the ride and I could do things like, go to bed earlier so I can wake up on time, right? Instead of going “why can't I still stay up till 11 watching Netflix!? And then my baby's still waking me up at three, this is not right!”. I just like “maybe just go to bed at nine and then get some sleep and then, if you wake up at three, you're rested and you go--”, you know? Or trying to like, set up the circumstances to where I’d be more successful within this time of learning to sleep.

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[Sara]: Yeah, I think that's a great example, because it's not like you just don't try to help your baby sleep and you, like you said, where you're gonna go to bed early, you're gonna do things to set it up for success. So, you're still doing something about it, but what happens internally is the game changer.

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[Sara]: And now you're in a place of peace and you're in a place of creativity and the baby picks up on that, but honestly, even teenagers. This is going to be true with teenagers and some situation that they're in, you can do the same thing “okay, is this a developmental stage?”. Because they're also whatever it might be, pushing, trying to be independent, growing, exploring. Their brain is going through all kinds of things in the teenage years. You can still accept those moments, but it doesn't mean “oh, they act however they want to act? Then--”

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[Sara]: You're still coming in with boundaries and you're still problem solving and you're still going somewhere together, but you can do it from a place of peace and a place of working together, instead of feeling like you've got to shut something down or stop something, so that they can be a successful person.

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[Kyle]: That’s good, and you know, with these, another example that I like that Dr. Becky Bailey does, is she talks about a car being on the sidewalk and if you and I, Sara, are walking down the sidewalk and that car is speeding towards us, you and I can look at that car and say “it shouldn't be here, it should not be on the sidewalk, that is not the road. Why is that person--? That person is a horrible driver” and then before you know it, the car is driving over us and killing us. That's what resistance with kids, behavior, issues in marriage, that's what it looks like. We keep going like “why is that happening? That shouldn't be happening, we should be doing this.”

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[Sara]: “Stop car! Stop!”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, why--? Instead, acceptance is just you honestly accepting the fact the car is there, the car is coming at you. Now you can do something about it.

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[Kyle]: So, when we are in this mode of acceptance, we're able to slip up to the upstairs part of our brain, the prefrontal cortex and now we can start seeing solutions. So, once again, going back-- I know I’m resisting when all I’m seeing is problems, all I’m seeing is all the pathways are blocked. There's no way to get through this or fix this situation. Acceptance is “this is where we're at and I believe there's solutions to this. We can start looking for solutions”.

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[Kyle]: So, that's a real change. Once I accept that, is where I’m at, then I can actually start being creative too. I can start problem solving like you and I-- When you and I were resisting, a lot of our conversations at night were like “why is Abby still doing that? What is she doing? I’m so sick of this! I don't understand why she's doing that”. Like, “Let's-- Okay, let's call Dr. Markham and find out what's going on here”. Like, it was constantly-- Or “why is Ellie not sleeping?” or “why is Brennan still doing this?”. It was constantly “what is going on here!?”. It was all-- When we started getting into this, when we started doing more accepting, it was more-- We were curious, you know? And I would ask you like “hey, I didn't know what to do in that moment, what would you have done?” and then, you would give me ideas and I’d be like “okay, I’m gonna try that tomorrow” and it was like we were excited to see what new thing we could try, to help support them to doing something different.

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[Sara]: And your focus is on the little areas of change too.

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[Sara]: You know, you start to notice it and see it and “Oh. Well, I mean, they were upset, but it wasn't as long as it was before” or you know, you’d have those-- Or “I’m exhausted, but I’m making it. I’m gonna go to bed early tonight” or-- You see just your shift and your gaze of what you're looking at changes.

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[Kyle]: Something we did that's real right now, that's real present, we're going on vacation, right?

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[Kyle]: And there's a lot of stuff we've got to get done and we feel like, pressured to get it done. A lot of things with the business, a lot of things-- Trying to get this podcast done, we're leaving tomorrow. We're trying to do this real quick and at times, we've been really snappy, you know? Gotten kind of mad and like “Kids! Stop doing that!”. You know, all these kinds of stuff, you know? And even like, just feeling the stress, hard to go to sleep and stay awake because our brains are running so fast, right? And so, I know something that we've tried to do intentionally is to sit down with the kids and say “listen, we're feeling kind of stressed, you know? We really could use your help and I’ve noticed the last couple days, not only have we been the more snippy at you, but you've been more snippy with each other and at each other and I would like the next couple days to look like this, okay? I would like us all to commit to being for each other, for all of us to practice self-control” and I’m even thinking that that's a big part of acceptance, is I didn't know regulating your emotions was a skill. I didn't know caring about other people's feelings was a skill, you know? Self-control is a skill and once I was able to accept that instead of demanding it and just wanting it to happen, then I could be more patient, you know?

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[Sara]: Right. Well, you see it as something to build.

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[Kyle]: And development in them, yes.

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[Sara]: And as in any skill, you practice and you would teach and you would, you know, do things to build that skill. When you look at it that way, then you think “oh, they don't have the skills yet, let's build it”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and then I-- So, the example I put down here was another sleep one, because that's always been a real problem. So, I remember when Abby-- I’ve used this before in other podcasts, but I just think it's so good is, Abby about like three or four, whatever age it was, she used to be like “hey, it's time to go bed”; “okay” and we go, we do our routine. It was really sweet thing and finally “oh, she's not a baby anymore, she's actually able to go to bed, we're able to sing and read a book”. It was so sweet and then, there was one night where I think the light bulb came on, when she goes to sleep, you and I stay up and we have fun and we do fun things and she was like “I’m not gonna go to bed!” and I remember I defaulted to what I believe happened to me when I was a kid and that was “resistance is futile”.

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[Kyle]: Like, do not-- Like, that's really what I was thinking “do not resist me, Abby. You're three years old, I will overwhelm you”, you know? And so, I just got bigger and madder and did it work? Yeah, I mean, she went to bed, but the next night the same thing happened again and I wasn't accepting the fact that I was pre-- What I was resisting was going to persist. The more I resisted what she resisted, I was just teaching how to resist me, you know?

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[Sara]: And I think you begin to think “well, this is just going to go on forever”.

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[Sara]: This is our new thing, yeah. She's gonna fight it, we have to fight her, drag her off to bed.

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[Kyle]: Yeah, “the terrible twos, the crazy threes”. Might be right, but instead, I-- Okay, I tried to go “Kyle. Okay, you're a grown adult, you've got a master's degree in counseling, you help kids all the time. Think through this” and so, the next night I was like “okay, let's just make it fun, right? That's all she's saying”. When I really could accept it, Sara, I saw that she's just saying “I want to be with you guys”.

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[Kyle]: “I like you guys. When I go to bed, you're gonna have fun and I’m gonna miss out.” Like “oh, yeah, I remember feeling that as a kid, that was kind of a bummer”. So, I was like “okay, I just need to help her be able to choose to go to bed” and so, the way I helped her was just like “okay, I know you don't want to sleep. It'd be great to stay up, wouldn't it? So, do you want to go back like a ninja or like a Jedi? Do you want to go back like a wheelbarrow or you want to jump on my back?”. Just kept giving her different options, until she found one that was really-- And then what was really cool about it, Sara, like I said in the previous podcast that we did this is, after about 30 days, she started saying-- Instead of saying “no, I’m not going to go to sleep”, she'd say “can I go back to bed this way?”.

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[Kyle]: So, eventually she was able to accept that sleep was what we were gonna do.

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[Sara]: And it was her way of saying “I still don't like this”. You would hear it in her voice, “I really wish I could stay out, but I know I’m going to bed, so this is how I’m gonna do it”.

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[Sara]: Same, remember sometimes saying goodbye? They wouldn't want to leave somewhere and so, instead of like “well, it's time to go, you gotta-- Put down the toys, you gotta say goodbye, it's time to go”. Instead of “how do you want to say goodbye? We're going to leave”.

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[Kyle]: Well, instead of resisting [Unintelligible], it's hard to say goodbye, it's hard to leave a fun thing. If you're at a place--

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[Sara]: You’re having a great time.

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[Kyle]: So, I’d love-- That's a great example for a lot of listeners. If your kid has a hard time leaving the playground, why wouldn't they? Like, why wouldn't it be hard? You brought them there because it's fun and so, it's hard to leave that fun thing and understand that's a skill. The ability to say “I like doing this, but now we're going to go back and do this other thing that isn't as fun, but I can shift that”; that is hard to do.

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[Sara]: It is.

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[Kyle]: Once I accept that-- So, something-- A little fun thing Sara and I do is, this was just stuff we just made up in our path of acceptance, was “oh yeah, it's going to be hard for them to say goodbye, so what we'll do is give them an opportunity to pick one last thing”. So, we started saying “hey guys, you got one more minute. I want you to pick one last thing to do” and then they might go “oh…”; “I know you guys want to stay, but what's your one last thing?”.

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[Sara]: And we would get enthusiastic about it. You know, we would go over it “show me, let me see. You're gonna go down that slide?”.

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[Sara]: And do that with them and then, whisk them away in a fun--

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[Kyle]: Yeah, and so, I want to end it with this sentence, Sara. It’s once I started to accept the situation, once I started to accept the circumstances, once I started to accept my kid as the human being they are. Because that's really what acceptance is, as a basis is it's about loving your kid and accepting them as they are or accepting your spouse as they are. You know, when we're resisting, I’m looking at them as how I’d like them to be, rather than as they are. So, acceptance is about accepting them exactly where they're at. So, once I can do that with my situation, my circumstances, I can then hold it loosely and realize that I’m not powerless and this kid or this situation does not control me. I always have choices, there's always choices.

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[Sara]: They would pick up on that too and it will change for them. At first you might see them they're used to that resistance dance that you've been doing, so they jump right into action to resist you. But if you're not playing the game, if you're not doing the resistance, you'll see that shift in them as well.

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[Sara]: Because they're like “wait, wait, I thought we were resisting each other here, but you're not doing that” and so, it'll put them at ease too, it'll help them not go into that fight or flight mode either and go “oh, we're calm? We're talking about this?” and it'll, you know, that dynamic in that relationship will shift.

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[Kyle]: Well, I love it. Even [Unintelligible], Sara, a lot of times I talk to parents one of the most important things we do is follow up conversations with the kids, and a lot of these kids that we help are resistant to that, because they don't believe it's going to be helpful. So, they're resisting the conversation, because they believe the whole conversation is going to be about you resisting their behavior.

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[Sara]: Yeah, telling them how wrong they were.

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[Kyle]: Exactly. So, resistance will grow more resistance, you know? They-- Every time they resist us and we resist them back, they then learn how better to resist us. So, it's through acceptance that real change always happens in relationship, okay? So, I hope that that thought, I hope-- I know it's a big one, but I hope we gave you some little nuggets and ways in which to understand it and think about it. I encourage you to find little ways to start noticing “am I spending most my day resisting my day? Am I resisting traffic? Am I resisting my co-workers? Am I resisting my kids? How can I start switching it to just accepting it?”, you know? Like “how can I accept traffic and just enjoy my drive to work or school? How can I accept being in the car line for 30 minutes at school?”. You know, in the school car line. “How can I accept that and just make it a time that doesn't have to suck for me?”, you know?

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[Sara]: Yeah, “this is what is, now what do I want to do going forward with it?”.

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[Kyle]: Yeah. So, such a great time talking this over with you and I really hope that this helps all the families. Please share this podcast to other families you think this would be helpful too. We really want to grow the reach of this podcast, so it can just be so beneficial to other families. So, we hope you have a great day.

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[Sara]: Thank you for listening.