Episode 30

[Kyle]: In this podcast today we're going to take on the subject of permissive parenting. So many parents think whenever you're moving away from consequences and punishment, that you're moving towards this kind of laissez-faire, the kids will do whatever they want approach and that's not what we're saying at all. So, I hope in this podcast today you're able to get some clarification on what we're trying to invite you into in the Art of Raising Humans.

 
[Kyle]: Hello and welcome to episode 30 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.

[Sara]: And I’m Sara.

[Kyle]: And today we are going to tackle the topic of permissive parenting. Just really thought this was an important topic to discuss, because a few episodes ago, Sara, we spent a lot of time talking about consequences and trying to re-see that differently. We've also spent a whole podcast talking about fear and punishment and kind of moving away from that, but the problem that people run into is, people tend to-- And I want to do a whole separate podcast about this too, but they tend to get into dichotomous thinking, meaning they just see two paths. So, either I’m being this authoritarian parent who is, you know, like having these high expectations on the kids and then punishing them when they don't meet them or we're just doing this laissez-faire approach, where we just completely take our hands off and just the kids do whatever they want, you know? And they move into what they would see as more of a permissive approach, okay?

[Kyle]: And so, I really want to spend this podcast just clarifying how we see permissive parenting and how it's not what we would ever want parents to do, you know? Because it's not helpful either.

[Sara]: Yeah, I kind of think of permissive parenting, I think-- I think it's an easy place to fall into if you're trying to. You think “okay, I’m not gonna make them do things, I’m not going to punish them and consequence them into doing things”. So, if I ask my kid to empty the dishwasher and then they say “no”, then, what do I do? And I’m just going to do the dishwasher”.

[Sara]: Or they don't clean the room, so I’m going to clean that room.

[Kyle]: Such a great point, yeah.

[Sara]: Or you know, I think it's-- Because then we're kind of left with “okay, we lost these tools and so, I think this is what I’m supposed to do now and then eventually, they're going to empty the dishwasher”, right? We're sort of-- We can be left in this confusing spot and I think it's easy to slip into the--

[Kyle]: You know what I love about that example? I love that example, because so many parents come in with that example of the dishwasher, okay? So, used to be when they were being authoritarian is, kid said they weren't gonna do it or the kid didn't get it done, you know? I told the kid to have it done by this time, kid didn't have it done. So, now the kid's going to lose his screen time or now the kid's going to-- Can't go--
 

[Kyle]: Whatever, the kid's grounded until the kid does it, right? So, we've talked a lot about that even if the kid does, that the kid didn't really choose to-- You know, the kid did choose, but in the kids mind, the kid didn't choose to do it, the kid did it because you threatened them, okay? But then I like what you said, lots of parents when they're trying to move away from that, then they just do it, okay? Now, what I want to clarify is the difference between permissive parenting and neglectful parenting, okay?
 

[Kyle]: So, permissive parenting is then possibly you doing that. So, maybe over and over again I say to them, you know, “hey, let's do the dishes” and the kid throws a fit, “I don't want to do it!”. So then “fine, okay, I’ll do it”, you know? So, then the parent does it for them, okay? So, the parent is asking them to do something, but the parent is then just doing it themselves, okay? Now, neglectful parenting is, I don't even ask my kid to do that, you know? In the neglectful parenting I’m not even inviting the kid into doing any of that, because I don't really expect the kid to ever do that, okay?

[Kyle]: So, in this kind of four-- There's like a four-quadrant approach, you know? Where authoritarian parenting would be high expectations, low support. Permissive parenting be high support, lower expectations, okay? So, maybe I do have the expectation kind of, that I think my kid should be able to do the dishes, you know? But then when they say “no”, I don't want to yell at them and so, I guess I’ll just do it. I don't want them to get upset, you know? Maybe they started throwing a tantrum as soon as they started trying to do it because it was too hard and instead of coming alongside them, I just did it for them, right?

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, I kind of see it as a rescuing, we were talking about--

[Sara]: Kind of rescuing them from their discomfort, from the emotional outburst or something that might happen. So, I’m not going to punish them and consequence them and then I kind of want to save them from this, you know, big outbursts and save myself from it exactly, so I’m just going to do it

[Kyle]: Yeah, exactly. “I’ll just do it for them”.
 

[Kyle]: And so, I like how you said “I want to save them and rescue them from that, but lots of times I want to rescue myself from that”, because we-- Maybe that permissive parent doesn't know how to handle their own upsets, their own-- They don't want to see that and so, they're just going to do it to just stop all of that, because typically they don't want the conflict either and will avoid this.

[Sara]: Yeah that's [Unintelligible] That's what I was thinking, it creates this conflict and they're not sure what to do with the conflict, so they're just going to do the dishes for them, you know?
 

[Sara]: Right, because if they're not going to do the punishment or maybe that's what they used to do and they are moving away or maybe that just is how it was modeled to them, you know?
 

[Sara]: My mom just always cleaned my room when I didn't want to clean up my room. So, that’s what I do for my kids.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, I remember I had a--

[Sara]: [Unintelligible] what else to do.

[Kyle]: One of my best friends was my roommate and he never cleaned up after himself and was very, very frustrating and finally when I had an honest heart talk with him, he said that, he said “yeah, I leave the dishes there because eventually my mom would always do those and I know you probably will too” and so, I realized that out of anger and out of my own fear of the conflict if I talk to my friend about the dishes, I just avoided that and I just did the dishes for him and then, he told me “yeah, I kind of was doing that because that was the dance he did with his own mom, was his mom would also just rescue him and now,--". So, through that heart-to-heart talk and just saying “I don't want to keep doing that”, it really helped our relationship grow and he started taking ownership of that, you know? Which is really great and that's we're wanting, but you know, I want to point out, Sara, too, that a lot of families, you know, when there's couples together raising kids, you typically have one that tends to lean more permissive and one that tends to lean more authoritarian. So, you have one that tends to be dismissive of the feelings and just do it. So, “I don't care if you throw a fit, just get it done”, you know? “Or else” and then you have the other one who's like “oh my gosh, I don't want them to get upset”.

[Kyle]: So, you tend to have couples who are attracted to each other because of that balance, you know? And so, that's normal to find that, but what we want parents to do is move out of those spaces and come together towards where we have the high expectations, but we're offering the high support, you know? I want them to not be afraid of the feelings, but also not be dismissive of them, you know?

[Sara]: Right

[Kyle]: So, what Dr. Markham, who trained-- Did some of the-- You know, we learned quite a bit from Dr. Laura Markham, she would say that's a recipe for raising an obnoxious kid, is jumping back and forth between permissive to authoritarian, permissive to authoritarian and so, you'll see parents who would just be permissive, permissive, permissive. “I’ll keep doing the dishes because I don't want the kid to throw a big fit” and then eventually I’m just tired of it and then I just scream at the kid and say “get the dishes done!” and then the kid’s like “whoa!”, you know? And what the kid learns is, they kind of have control over how your emotions are. So, they can keep pushing the limit, pushing the limit, pushing the limit, until you blow up and then they'll toe the line and they'll go “okay, I need to be that kid for them that--” and then they'll feel bad about it. Typically the parent will feel guilty or feel ashamed of how they blew up and then they'll go back to being permissive, permissive, permissive and then blow up at them, right? And so, that's also a recipe for a lot of problems within the home, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. It's so easy, I mean, I feel like if you hear that and that feels like “oh, that's us exactly”, that's just so-- It's so prevalent, it's out there, we fall into that, you know? So, also just realize if you're hearing that, that's kind of normal and then, we're here to all grow together, right?

[Sara]: So, that's part of the art of raising ourselves as humans.

[Kyle]: That’s right, exactly. That's a great point, yes and so, you use the word “rescue”, you could also-- This is real common to hear the word “enabling”, right?

 

[Kyle]: So, in permissive I say “rescuing” is “I know I’m being permissive when I’m rescuing my kid from their feelings or I’m enabling their behavior”, meaning that I’m somehow almost like helicopter parents might be, you know? I’m going and doing their homework for them, so they don't fail that class, you know? I’m somehow-- Even it's kind of somewhat doing that whenever I’m, you know, you'll see parents do this where they're paying their kids to perform well in sports or something like that. It is kind of a form of enabling and rescuing when I’m paying them to make good grades or things like that, you know? That could be a form of permissive parenting. So, we want to move away-- I want to move away from this idea that permissive parent it's not that they're not doing anything, that's neglectful parenting.

[Sara]: Yeah, and they have expectations, they really have value systems and things, you know, what things they want for their children to have to be healthy and to live good lives.

[Kyle]: Yes. So, the permissive parent though, I think has just lowered their expectations and then they're upping the amount of support, they feel like they need to give for the kid to be successful and it's just really tiring, you know? You see a lot of these parents deal with a lot of shame, because they feel like they're not doing enough to help their kid, you know? And so, the reason why permissive parenting is damaging to the kid, is because it actually feels good to the kid when you have higher expectations on them. Because just like with you and I, we have high expectations on each other in our marriage and I’m glad that you expect great things from me, because it means you think I can do great things.

[Sara]: Yeah, I think that that conveys to your child, “I believe in you, you are capable”. Because if I’m always having to do things for you, what message does that send?
 

[Sara]: “You're not capable, I don't think you can do this, you can't hack it”, but when-- So, that expectation is healthy because it tells the child “you're so capable, you're so smart, you're so--” and it sends that message to them.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, I’m just thinking of like, every time I was a jerk to you, you just thought “well, he's just a jerk. What am I gonna do, right?”. I’m glad that you don't-- If I was being a jerk to you, you think I’m better than that. So, you would have a discussion with me about how to be better than that and I appreciate it, it makes me feel loved that you would do that, you know? Because you don't think that's who I am, you know?

[Sara]: And for children, even though it's a hard task to do, but you know they're capable of it and then they do that hard thing.

[Kyle]: Yes, oh my gosh.

[Sara]: Even if it's through blood, sweat and tears, they do that hard thing reasonable, age-appropriate.

[Kyle]: Yeah, of course.

[Sara]: Then when they get done with it, how do they feel?
 

[Sara]: Our kids recently just did something, they had a school thing they had to do, that they had memorized a lot of information and they had to repeat it to a bunch of people and prove their knowledge and it was really hard and it took a lot of time and effort, but the feeling they get when they do that, if I went and recited the information for them, they wouldn't have that good feeling of hard work, accomplishment and now they know in themselves that they can do it.

[Kyle]: Yeah. You know what? I’m thinking of this perfect example, if anybody who's listening has ever seen the show called “The Middle”. So, in “The Middle”, the older kid's name is Axel and there's this moment where there's something wrong-- There's something wrong going on with the kitchen, like the sink needs to be fixed or something like that. So, the grandpa and the dad are talking about how to fix that. The dad doesn't have time to do it, so the grandpa says “that's okay, I’ll fix it with Axel” and the dad says “good luck” and then he remembers back all these times when he's doing home improvement projects, like he's painting the house and Axel will like, be painting and he'll like slip and paint across the window and the dad like “oh my gosh, Axel! You messed up the window! Get out of here!” and Axel “okay, I guess I’m just not good at that”, you know? And there's like two or three other occasions where he's asked him for help and he messes up intentionally and the dad's like “oh, he can't do it”, so he tells him to leave.

[Kyle]: So, the grandpa says “oh, I think we can do it”. So, it's funny in the show to watch Axel tries to mess that up too, like he's moving some stuff, I think they need to move the fridge, he's moving it and he drops some of the food and “oh, look at me, I’m such a moron” and the grandpa “oh no, we all make mistakes. Yeah, I’ll help you with that. Come on, we can get that together” and the grandpa just keeps doing that, keeps coming alongside him rather than getting mad at him and telling him to go away and eventually, Axel fixes the entire thing almost on his own. Of course with grandpa's guidance and the look on his face when he invites the family in to see what he has done, it's the first time he's actually done it and completed it. Because his story was “I’m the kid that gets out of it. I’m the kid that just makes it really difficult and you tell me to go away. I’m the kid that you lower your expectations, you don't believe that--”.
[Kyle]: It also makes me think of how many kids I went to school with, who they-- When I was getting A's and B's because I wanted to, because I thought I was smart and I thought I was capable of doing it, kids would say “that's stupid, Kyle. I get C's and D's, so then my parents pay me when I get a B”, you know? They just, they made everybody lower the expectations and then they were getting paid, which I wasn't getting paid for A’s or B’s, but they were then like “if I get an A, dude, I’m getting like $50 bucks for that A and if I get a B--” and so, they train their parents to believe they weren't capable of it and therefore, less was expected of them, you know? And I just think for the kid to know you believe that they can do more, it's not that you're just leaving on an island saying “do it, you can do better than that”. It's saying “I believe you can do it. Let me help you”.

[Sara]: Yeah, and this is-- And I want to just put in a little asterisk here, make sure what you're asking and know your child. You know, there are some children that C is great for them, because they have some extra challenges and things going on or I’m not going to ask my four-year-old to empty the dishwasher.

[Sara]: You know. I’m going to have these things be age-appropriate.
 

[Sara]: And there are even-- You can even look it up if you're not sure what's age appropriate, you can even google “what can a 10-year-old do for chores?” and then usually you'll find the right chores, but responsibilities in the house.
[Kyle]: Uh huh, yeah.

[Sara]: And it'll give you a good list, because then you know “okay, I want to make sure I’m not asking too much, but I also want to make sure I’m not asking too little”, you know? I can meet them where they're at developmentally and then they can get that good feeling and then that increases as you get older, right?

[Kyle]: Yeah. I think I’d almost-- I mean, I'd like to err on the side of asking too much, you know, in a sense of like, asking a lot and shooting for the moon and then really supporting them and to where they-- There's no failure there, it's just like you're just trying it out. I’m thinking of like, in church one time we saw there was a guy that we kind of admired who had three sons and I remember before we had kids, we kind of watched because I really liked his relationship he had with his boys and if you remember, Sara, he would bring-- Each son was given the opportunity to sit with him during the church service instead of just going to the kids service, you know? And because the kids really loved their dad, they wanted to be with him, you know? And so, he would stay as long as possible to where they just started getting too squirrely. So, it probably was too much to ask the kid to sit through a 30-minute deal, but he would-- You saw him gradually getting there 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes and once [Unintelligible], he would go out in the hall and just sit with them there, but it was almost like he was inviting them in to saying “hey, I think we can do this”.

[Kyle]: And then once it was like “well, maybe he can't, you know? That's okay, I’ll move into a different space to help you”, you know? So, that's kind of how I’ve always seen kind of inviting our kids into doing things, is as long as we're there to support them, I think it's kind of fun to see because they might surprise you, you know? Other people might say “well, my kid at that age couldn't do it”, but maybe the kid could, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah, that's why you need to know your kid and I love that example, because there wasn't a “oh, you had to go out to the hallway after 15 minutes”, it really was a “wow! we sat there” and you did see that skill develop in the child. They were able to sit longer because they had this sort of non-judgmental support being lent to the child.
[Kyle]: Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

[Sara]: “I believe in you. You can do this. Okay, you're done now, we've reached your limit, let's go out there. Next time we can try again, we can do it again”. So, I love that, that's a great example of nice support with a good expectation.

[Kyle]: I think even on all the road trips we've taken, like trying to know what is realistic to expect the kids to be able to endure, right? And we practice a lot with doing these little three-hour road trips, several times before we did the 10-hour one, where we'd go to Colorado or something and so, it was like trying you and I to assess what is reasonable to expect, you know? But our expectations have always been high and it's just for me, I kind of slip into maybe not giving enough support, because I’ll just get frustrated and be like “come on! Aren't we there yet already? For goodness sakes, just do the thing!”, right? So, I can slip into that, but always trying to give the support needed to be successful with that expectation and I just-- I don't know, I just think when I see parents do that with kids, I think kids really feel encouraged that you-- Almost like a really good coach, who asks something of a kid like, during a game, to go and the kids like “I don't think I can do that” and the coach looks and says “I think you can” and the kid knows something in that coach's eyes that “he seems to know something about me I don't know yet” and that's what I really want to get to. I think with permissive parenting, the thing it's hurtful in, you know? Like the authoritarian is “I believe you can do this, but if you don't, I’m going to yell at you until you do”. The permissive is-- The permissive parenting I think really is harmful to the kid, because the kid goes “I don't even think you think I can, you know?”

[Sara]: Yeah. “I don't believe in me, you don't believe in me, no one believes I’m capable of this”.

[Kyle]: Yes, yeah and that's just-- It's so discouraging, you know? Like I know kids that I counsel, who they know if they have a permissive parent. If they ask for something and the parent sets the limit, this is really comes to a head, Sara, is they set a limit like, no more cookies or no more screen time, the kid knows if they throw a big enough fit that the parent will give it to them, because they know the parent doesn't believe that they can handle it, the parent can't handle it, but also doesn't believe the kid can handle it, you know? They think if they get big enough, [Unintelligible] to these kids, they can get really big and really aggressive and they are being like, trained to keep pushing the limits until that parent gives in to that, you know? Instead of the parent saying, it's not like “no, I’m not bending!”, you know? “I said you're not, so you're not!”, that's the authoritarian approach. I’m not saying that, but I am saying I keep the expectations high that I believe we can all do this. I think we can handle it.

[Kyle]: Like, many times I suggest parents take like a screen fast, you know, take like two to three weeks off and what those parents who stuck with that and done that consistently throughout those three weeks, it is they've had some great reports back that the kids are no longer asking for the screens, the conflict is less, the cooperation's up. They're playing board games where the kids used to be like “no, board games are boring”. They're just seeing so much more healthy interactions happening, but a lot of parents don't follow through with it, because the kid knows “I can push them far enough and they will believe I can't handle without being without my screens”.

[Sara]: Yeah, and I think the kid believes that, it's not even a manipulation.

 

[Sara]: I mean, they could think that in their head, “I know if I get big enough, you're going to give in”.
 

[Sara]: But the kid is going to that space because they really do kind of believe they need the screens, that's a good example or the sugar or the whatever it might be. “I can't put my phone down, I can't go to bed when you want me to”, you know? So, we're just reinforcing that and really to be honest, we all want to avoid the discomfort.

[Kyle]: Yeah, we do, yeah.

[Sara]: You know, the kid wants to avoid the discomfort of that, you want to avoid the discomfort of it, instead of trusting that they can handle it.

[Kyle]: Yeah, “we can get through this”. Yeah.

[Sara]: It would all be very uncomfortable for a while, but it will pay off in so many ways if we can do this. “We can do it too, I believe in me, I believe in my child”.

[Kyle]: Well, and I think it starts with there, with the permissive parent. Remember I said, I think a lot of friends really have a lot of shame about how they can't do this, “I can't handle them”, right? So, whereas like with the authoritarian approach, there is some shame there too, but it's much more of a fear thing of like, “I’m going to control you with big power domination”.

[Kyle]: Whereas of “I don't think I can handle this. When you get really big, I’m gonna feel really bad about what could happen, you know? I don't trust myself in this moment, you know? So, I’m just gonna almost back out and just give in, because that's easier, you know?” and so, what I want to encourage them and you mentioned this is “I can do this”, you know? I mean, is there something you would say that would encourage a permissive parent like, that's my thought is “I can do this, I can handle this”.

[Sara]: Yeah, I think some of it is there might be a legitimate need for tools, so realize that, realize “I don't think I could handle it, because I have no idea what to do when they get big”, you know? “When their emotions get big, I don't know what to do”. So, we need to own that, own your part and go “okay, I need to get those tools and I need to do the things I need to do, just to keep myself regulated if my child isn't regulated”.

[Sara]: And just, you know, you realize you can handle this.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and I hope everyone hears this saying, in this kind of new way of the Art of Raising Humans that we're talking about, that so many different great people are writing books about and teaching about is, it's not an “either / or”, it's not-- There's not only just two options. “Either I control them or they seemingly control me”, you know? Those aren't the two options. Those are two options based in unhealthy power dynamics, either I’m on top of the kid and I’m yelling at the kid to make the kid-- Or the kid is now controlling my emotions and dictating, you know, what goes on in the home. Is I want to raise the expectations on myself and my kid, I want to have high expectations that I don't need to scream at my kid to then, you know, invite cooperation to do an activity like washing the dishes or putting down the screens. I think we can do that; you know? I think my kid when they're done watching a show, can walk up to me and hand it to me and say “here you go, dad, I’m done with that show. Thanks for letting me watch it”. I think that's not-- I think a kid can do that.

[Kyle]: And so, every kid I know you and I work with, I’m inviting them into those expectations, I believe every kid we talk to can do that, you know? And I want to raise the expectation, I think every parent has the capability to be able to regulate themselves first and then invite their kid in that. It's not an “either / or”, you don't only have two options, there is a third option where you have high expectations, but also high support. Support for yourself and support for your child.

[Sara]: Yeah, and it's going to be some work moving into that space, is work and it's work we do. You and I have to get back into that space, sometimes we slip out of it and we have to come back to that space and so, it's work I’d say you do over and over and over again, but it pays off, it's so wonderful.

[Kyle]: It does, yeah.

[Sara]: And you get to enjoy the fruit of that, your child gets to enjoy the fruit of that. So, it may be a discipline and for me, I think I hope for my children it's more natural, you know? In sort of unnatural moving into this phase.

[Sara]: But for them, I hope it’s more natural for that next generation and you'll see that just-- To me, it just piles up, you know? As my children learn these skills and as I get better at it, then we just have such a peaceful home and we have cooperation and we have them building skills that they're going to take into the rest of their life.
 

[Sara]: And that's so rewarding for me and it's so rewarding to see my children too, they love the reward of that!

[Kyle]: Yeah, they do. Well, I even, you know, to that point, Sara, I actually want my kids to have high expectations on me too.
 

[Kyle]: I don't want my kids to be permissive with me, I want them to hold me to a higher standard and a lot of times when I’m counseling teenagers, I’ll invite them into that. They'll be so mad at their parents and they'll have like this authoritarian way of seeing their parents like, they have high expectations on their parents, but they're not giving the kids parents any support and so, then I’ll say to them like, “what are the expectations you have on them, you know? And how are you supporting them, you know?”, because I don't want them also to flip to the other side, which I’ve seen kids do that. Where their parents yell at them a lot or their parents, you know, and secretly they're sad that their parents don't treat them better or don't talk to them better or don't, you know, believe in them more and “why don't you tell your parents that, you know?”. Because typically they've bought in this belief that it's better just to be permissive like, “I don't think my parents can handle that conversation”, some of them will say that too.
 

[Kyle]: I’ll say “can we bring your parent into the conversation?” and they'll say “no, I don't think they can handle it. I think they'll just get really mad or I think they'll start to cry and they can't handle that conversation” and that just, that breaks my heart that the kid has learned now to be permissive with the parents. So, we're trying to model what we want our kids to do with us when they're adults. I want them to have high expectations on us and high support for us, so that we can grow together as human beings, you know?

[Kyle]: So, I want to end, Sara, with this quote. There's a guy named Haim Ginott and I’m taking this quote from a book he wrote and Haim Ginott was-- Back in the day he was real cutting edge back in the 70s and 80s, trying to encourage people to stop spanking and move away from kind of fear-based approaches and that was really controversial, even more so then, but I love this quote. He says “I have come to the frightening conclusion that I am the decisive element. It is my personal approach that creates the climate, it is my daily mood that makes the weather. I possess tremendous power to make life miserable or joyous. I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration. I can humiliate or humor, hurt or heal. In all situations it is my response that decides whether a crisis is escalated or de-escalated and a person is humanized or dehumanized” and this is the key part I want to end on is, if we treat people as they are, we make them worse. If we treat people as they ought to be, we help them become what they are capable of becoming.

[Kyle]: So, I just love that thought of trying to treat people as they ought to be, like having this better vision of who that kid can be or who I can be and then helping them become what they are capable of becoming. So, I hope this helps clarify for you just the other spectrum that parents tend to go to, of we're not suggesting when we say move away from consequences and spanking and that stuff, that we're saying “don't do anything! Let them--” like quite the opposite. I’m asking-- We're raising our expectations even more of ourselves and of the listeners and of the people we help and we believe you are capable of doing it and that's why we're calling parents to this type of parenting, okay?
[Kyle]: So, if this podcast is helpful to you, we'd love for you to please share it. Give us five stars, that's always fantastic, it really improves the rating and makes people more likely to be able to see it and be open to it. So, we really have had listeners-- Quite good listening has really gone up over the past like several months and we're really excited to see that the past two or three months in particular, so people are obviously sharing it. If you have comments or thoughts on this podcast, we'd love for you to send them our way. You can email us at info@parentinglegacy.com, you can also go to our website see our content there, there's a lot of different ways to reach us. So, I hope this was helpful in clarifying a third path for you to choose in your parenting and it gives you some idea about how to start taking that journey and I hope all the other podcasts have been beneficial to you in that way as well, and there was summer coming up, I hope you have fantastic plans planned for your family and a lot of ways to really enjoy yourself and your kids. So, have a great day.

[Sara]: Thanks for listening.