Episode 12

[Sara]: And the growth mindset says “even if I failed, I failed at this attempt”.

[Sara]: But I could try this and I can try that and I can-- So, it's a very just sort of a fluid… You don't see failure or something going wrong as a bad thing, but “okay, I learned that that way doesn't work”.

[Kyle]: Hello and welcome to episode 12 of The Art of Raising Humans podcast. I’m Kyle Wester.

[Sara]: I'm Sara.

[Kyle]: I just want to say happy new year!

[Sara]: Merry Christmas!

[Kyle]: Oh, and Merry Christmas too, yes! We're recording this a couple of days before Christmas and it's going to come out right after the new year. We're in our closet recording, it is full of Amazon packages and other types of things that we still have not wrapped. We've got a lot of Christmas stuff on our mind, but we wanted to be able to record some podcasts, to welcome you right as you go into the new year and to kind of equip you for a whole new year with your family in 2023 or 2022, right? 2022. Oh my gosh!

[Sara]: [Laughter] You’re just like, “let's just skip this one”.

[Kyle]: I’m just skipping a whole another year.

[Sara]: If we jump ahead, maybe it'll be better.

[Kyle]: Yes, in 2022. So, we just want to say happy new year and I’m hoping this podcast, the goal in this podcast is to give you some tools that Sara and I use with our family and that we use with a lot of kids that we help and families we help, to kind of start the year off in a purposeful intentional way. So, when I was writing out the thoughts I had about this particular podcast is, I was thinking about growth mindset and how that's kind of at the core of what Sara and I like to do with kids and families starting out the year, you know? So, Sara, when I say growth mindset, what do you think about? How would you explain that?

[Sara]: All right. Well, I’m gonna start-- Actually, back up before that and just say there's sort of-- There's been the study on, what's the difference between people who can go after things and accomplish goals and people who seem to try, try, try and spin their wheels and don't get things accomplished?

[Kyle]: I’ve been there for sure. Where I’ve tried, tried, tried so much [Laughter]

[Sara]: Yeah, I think that's really, really common. So, there's two different kinds of mindsets, there's what they call a fixed mindset and a growth mindset, and the fixed mindset is the belief and you'll hear it even in school systems and workplaces and its sort of this idea that you are born with this set of potential. It is fixed, you are only--

[Kyle]: A set of intelligence. That’s it, yeah.

[Sara]: Yes, you're only so smart, you only have so many abilities and that's it.

[Sara]: And throughout your life, hopefully you'll live up to that potential.

[Kyle]: Hopefully you'll get all that potential out, yeah.

[Sara]: But it's only this much, that's it.

[Sara]: Growth mindset is, as they've done more research, as we've learned more about the brain and humans in general, we're able to research in new ways than we've ever had before, we've learned that those things are not as fixed as we once thought they were.

[Sara]: And our intellect is actually largely based on our belief system and a lot of things coming together, right? Who comes around you, how you're taught, there's-- It's not a fixed thing. Your skill set is not a fixed thing, that we we're actually able to learn and adapt and change in many more ways than we originally thought. So, growth mindset is then, okay, if that's true? How do we do that? So, growth mindset is about this way of thinking, this way of functioning in the world, that grows where you're growing instead of--

[Kyle]: Yeah, it expands, I like to think of us expanding, yeah.

[Kyle]: Our potential, we can move that potential bubble and make it bigger, yeah? Right.

[Sara]: Yeah, “my IQ can only be this, so I’m just stuck there” versus “I can continue to be more and more”.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, and I think I saw that a lot as a school counselor, with a lot of-- Even the ways I approach kids. There's certain kids I would see and go “oh, that kid has tons of potential” and it was kind of like, I saw that kid with a growth mindset mentality, but then there's other kids like, “oh, that poor kid. I think that kid's gone as far as they can go” and it was kind of a fix mentality and I found you just approached those people differently, because you didn't think they could expand, you know? Whereas the other kids you just thought “wow! This kid could continue to learn and grow”. So, what you're saying is everybody can do that.

[Kyle]: Like everybody has the potential to grow and expand, whether it's intelligence, whether it's talent, whether it's skill, all those kinds of things, right?

[Sara]: Yeah, and it even goes into things as our ways of thinking of “it's easier”, “this is so, so hard, it's just easier to give up” or “this work is boring, it's always going to be boring” and it's this any place in life where things are just set and they're unmovable.

[Sara]: “This will be easy for him, but not me”.

[Kyle]: I hear that all the time with teenagers working in school, “math stinks, I’m not good at math”, right? Or “science is so boring”.

[Sara]: “It's not my thing”.

[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. “I’m just--”

[Sara]: “I just don't enjoy it”.

[Kyle]: Yeah, “I’m just not good at that”, yeah and you'll hear they just give up on it, you know?
[Sara]: Well, and even if they don't give up, let's say they continue to try really hard, but the fixed mentality of “it's always going to be hard, it's never going to be my thing” and instead of the idea that it could be, it doesn't have to be boring, you don't have to always have a hard time with this, that's the idea that things could change versus “it's here, this is how it is” in relationship with our kids.

[Sara]: This kid, I’ve always clicked, we just always get along. This child, from day one or you know, we just butt heads.

[Sara]: The idea of like, “this is where we're at and that's just the way it is”.

[Kyle]: No, I’ve heard parents say “I have nothing in common with this kid”.

[Kyle]: “We just can't hang out; we just don't have fun together”. Like, what are you talking about? Like, of course, you have so many things in common, you're in the same family, you came from the same DNA, I mean, there's so many things, but I thought once they've said that, many times they stop looking for ways that they actually have in common. You know, are there areas that you can think of, Sara, because as you're talking, I think pops in my mind areas where I’ve seen that happen, where-- Something I tell teenagers when I’m talking to them is, in seventh grade I had a science teacher and she was just not good teaching science [Laughter] And everybody in my class disliked that class. I was my first hour class, we dreaded going to it, I got a bad grade, probably the worst grade I got in middle school and just couldn't wait to get out of that and so, I had this fixed mindset that science just isn't something I’m gonna like, but then, eighth grade year I had this teacher named Mr. Burke and he was funny, he was hilarious. Me and my friends were super talkative, we always talked too much in class and he would give us every Friday, about 20 minutes to do whatever we wanted to do like, some kind of comedy routine or ways-- I mean, my friends loved it and Mr. Burke was super corny, telling a lot of corny jokes and we just thought he was hilarious and all of a sudden, science was fantastic! I loved science!

[Kyle]: And then, that went on to my ninth-grade year, had Mr. Forrester, he was a fantastic science teacher and I was like “science is kind of fun, I really enjoy this”. So, I don't know if there's any areas where you noticed, maybe you had a mindset about one thing and then you saw it shift, you know, because of changes in your surroundings or situations.

[Sara]: Nothing comes to mind immediately.

[Sara]: I mean, I do think of where I had limitations, I always thought-- I think we easily slip into comparisons, right? Especially among siblings. So, kids, if you-- I mean, you probably notice this with kids, parents out there probably notice this, just where they'll start comparing themselves and so, as a kid you think “oh--” You know, for me it's like “oh, my sister's a better singer” or “my brother, he's the smart one” and those are all areas where you can, as a child without even realizing it, you slip into this. I mean, “I can only be so much”.

[Sara]: “I’m never going to be this great speaker because I’m a little--” You know, “I put my thoughts together differently and I’m just never going to be a great speaker, so I shouldn't even try for that”.

[Sara]: That's that fixed mindset that I know I slipped into, but then I’d have things come along, you know? Even in college or in adult life, even as I learned about growth mindset and I started to look at my own self and I’d encourage parents to do this to, you know, look at your own self and see, because then you model that for your kids too, but where-- And “I’m always going to be--” “I’m always going to have a temper” or “I’m always--” You know, “I’m just kind of disorganized”.

[Sara]: And where we then model for our kids that I, you know, “this is just me and I’m just always going to be this way and I’m stuck” and then, also we do that, you know, that goes into the relationship of “we're not ever going to get along” or “we're always going to butt heads”.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, especially if much siblings, I see that a lot. Yeah, siblings will disagree, I just-- “We just can't get along”, “you're always going to be annoying to me”, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah, yes. Yeah, and then, I take that step further when I look at my kids, I also want to go “wow! she's just messy”. “She's just always been messy” or “she's always that drama queen” or something like that. We need to watch where we're placing that fixed mindset onto our children.

[Kyle]: You know, I think the most frustrating way I see it Sara, is when-- Sometimes when we're helping families, is a family will come in and want help, but then tell me all the ways the kid can't actually change. “The kid can't seem to be organized, the kid can't be respectful, the kid can't and never has”. So, my first question is, what are we doing here? Why are we talking about it’ Let's just accept the fact that they can't do it, that's what we need to work on and so, it shows me that the parent in that moment and you and I have been there at times.

[Kyle]: And I know I’m there Sara when I start getting mad. Typically, I get mad or raise my voice or get more-- That's my go-to of like “I’m so sick and tired of the fact that you can't seem to change this, I’m going to get upset at you to then make you change it, even though I in my own mind, I think you can't change it”.

[Sara]: Yeah, you've laid this fixed set on them, this fixed situation that's unchangeable and children will often believe us.

[Kyle]: They will.

[Sara]: If we tell them something can't change, then they're probably gonna-- Relationships work that way.

[Kyle]: Or if we say things, it never changes, you know? This never changes and then we'll get mad at them for it never changing and the kid's like “well, it never changes, I guess this is the relationship, it has to be this way. I can't change it and then you've got to get mad at me because I can't change it”.

[Sara]: So, if it's okay, let's shift into what growth mindset looks like.

[Sara]: So, I think we probably-- That's a pretty good set of here's what fixed mindset looks like and so, growth mindset is kind of having the idea of “I want to learn new things, I can learn new things, I can always change”. It's looking at yourself and saying “is this really my best work?” and being open to “oh wow, I could brainstorm in being that open to where's the problem, but not seeing it as a fixed situation, but I can look at this problem, it's not threatening to me because it's not fixed”. A problem is threatening when we can't change it, but if we have that growth mindset, we're curious and we're open and we think “okay. So, the bedroom is never picked up, let's--” You know, up to this point. So, let's see what can change, what are the possibilities and imagine a room that's organized, imagine whatever that-- You know, that's a really light example, but in relationships, we can start to be creative and look at what can change and see the possibilities and move into that “when we see that there's possibilities, then there are”.

[Kyle]: When we say “let’s start looking for them”.

[Kyle]: I remember even my fixed mindset that moved into growth, about one time our lamp broke and my fixed mindset was “I’m not a fix-it guy, I don't know how to fix things, I’m not good at that”.

[Kyle]: And I remember you said “it should be an easy fix” and even that frustrated me because like, it confirmed that I’m not good at this like, “she thinks it's an easy fix and yet, she's asking me to fix it”. So, it took me about a month and I remember being very intimidated by this lamp and just not wanting to take that step and so, I can relate to a lot of kids when they feel that way and eventually, I wanted to have this growth mindset, so I started thinking about “how could I fix it? What could I do to try and fix it?”, instead of saying “I have to be a fix-it guy to do it”. I don't have to be a fix-it guy to fix this lamp, I just need to be willing to try to fix it, right? And so, what I did is I went to Lowe’s, I talked to a guy at Lowe’s, it took me a $1,50 and it was just a little switch and I fixed it, but I felt really good and then, that led into me fixing the stove. Remember that? When I actually did that and I just went on YouTube and found a guy who knew-- It was awesome! It was a fantastic feeling, but if I had never done that lamp, I don't think I ever would have tried the stove, because I would have just clumped that into “you have to be a fix-it guy to do this” and I’m not a fix-it guy.

[Sara]: And the growth mindset says “even if I failed”

[Sara]: “I failed at this attempt”.

[Sara]: But I could try this and I can try that and I can-- So, it's a very-- You just sort of a fluid. You don't see failure or something going wrong as a bad thing, but “okay, I learned that that way doesn't work”. That doesn't mean there are 500 other ways I can try and might work, it's just information that tells me “That didn't work”.

[Sara]: And so, it's just this different place of “okay. Well, that's it”, you know? But you're just very willing to try things because you see mistakes as a positive thing, in a way that you have learned, you have grown, you're changing and moving into.

[Kyle]: Yeah, I think we're so scared to make mistakes, because it will confirm I’m a failure, so we just are afraid to try new things, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah, and even with your weaknesses, it's okay to recognize “this is a weakness for me”.

[Kyle]: Yeah, “this will always be a little more-- maybe it may always be a little more difficult for me, but it doesn't mean I can't try to do it”.

[Sara]: Yeah, or “it's a weakness right now”.

[Kyle]: Yeah, it's true, that's good.

[Sara]: It doesn't mean it always will be, I just haven't figured out my way yet, doesn’t mean I won't figure it out.

[Kyle]: Well, what I love about the growth mindset and I know early on you kind of brought this to my attention and we both already were kind of passionate about moving away from things like “I can't do that” or using words like always or never are very limiting fixed mindset types of ways of thinking. So, we moved away from that verbiage, but I loved the technique that we started doing. We used to do this on our own just as a married couple, but as we had kids, we started doing with them, where we were intentional about as the new year rolled around, it wasn't so much we were doing new year's resolutions, but we were more kind of pinpointing specific goals that we wanted to make an attempt at, right? To try to-- I mean, every year we look at it, we don't achieve all these goals. The point of this endeavor isn't to just check it off the list “yeah, I did it”. Of course, it feels great if you do that, but the idea is to set them, to write them down and set them and to have this idea that “I can this year, grow and change and I can learn new things”.

[Sara]: Yeah. So, yes, like you said, it's our way of sort of adopting this growth mindset of “I’m going to grow this year and let's sit down and think about how we're going to grow”. So, we-- I’m going to go into what we do.

[Kyle]: Sure, good. I’ll just bounce off.

[Sara]: What this looks like in our family and it can look different, so we're just sharing what we do.

[Kyle]: Yeah, we'd love to hear what, you know, how you guys have done something like this or any listeners who've adopted similar ideas, would love to hear how you do, but this is how we do.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, because I love-- We're always open to changing it and adopting, so somebody might be really good at it.

[Kyle]: Because we have growth mindset about it [Laughter]

[Sara]: [Laughter] Exactly. So, if someone has a great idea, well, I’ll be excited to incorporate that into ours. Each year, I think we do it slightly different, but we're trying-- Our kids are old enough to really participate, we want their participation, I want my five-year-old's participation at her level. So, we get together, we set this time. We set it aside, it's a special quiet time, not riding in the car, you know, when we have tv on or something like that.

[Kyle]: It's almost like a family meeting.

[Sara]: It is.

[Kyle]: The kids know, we have a family meeting at the beginning of the year where we have this conversation.

[Sara]: Yeah, and it's to sit down and create our goals and we don't tell them what their goals are, we ask them what their goals are. So, we want them to own their goals. I know there's been different studies, I know there's a Harvard study, there's different studies about people who set goals in life and the difference in what they achieve and what they accomplish and how close they get to the life they want, versus people who never intentionally set a goal.

[Kyle]: And on top of that, having that goal written down and seeing it frequently.

[Sara]: Yes, yeah. So, it's not that you always achieve the goal perfectly, you could even change your goal mid-year, but it's the intentionality of setting the goal, like you said, writing it down and looking at it.

[Kyle]: I want to just bounce off that. The reason why I think that's important, is something that we believe, is we're very passionate about with our kids and then the idea of this Art of Raising Humans, is our kids have free will, that they are free, they get to choose and so, I think doing a practice like this is also an exercise of that freedom. That this year 2022, is your year, like you get to choose what this year is to you, you know? You get to choose what you want to accomplish, what you want to grow in, what you want to overcome; you get to choose all those things.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and so, I want them-- I think, for me just as an adult, but also as a child, teenagers specifically need a lot of practice in this of exercising that free will. That's how somebody gets a-- They grow their will in a way to express themselves in this world, is by setting goals and then finding themselves achieving them or being able to just believe that they can they can guide their future, you know?

[Sara]: It is a skill to learn to set goals, because-- I mean, first you have to think about what do I really want, that can be hard enough and then, what steps do I need to take to get there? What if I need to change course midway? These are all things that are hard to learn and so, we want to teach our kids that because you see, you may have experienced this yourself when you turn 18 and you're out in the world, so to speak and if your parents have dictated and planned everything for you, you're just out there and, what do you do? And you see kids handle it different ways, they can shut down or they just go kind of all over the place.

[Kyle]: or they get in a relationship and expect that person to help them do all that for them too, yeah.

[Sara]: Yeah, because they're so used to having it guided, so we want to hand that over to our children. Of course, you're pretty much dictating your little baby's life, but every year you're handing more and more and more of that over and it can be kind of scary for a parent and scary for the kid, but both of you walking together through it, you get better at it, because one day you're going to have to let go of that and they get better at it because they build the skills. So, we sit down and we ask them what they want to accomplish that year. We could throw out ideas, but we are very just, open. This is their chance to build this skill, so we really hand it to them.

[Kyle]: And it always surprises me what they come up with. You know, sometimes I would think I would want them to grow in X, Y and Z, but then they pick something out and “oh yeah, that's actually even cooler, I’d love for you to grow in that, yeah”.

[Sara]: Yeah. So, to have that self-direction, something inside of them and they're going to be far more motivated for a goal they come up with than a goal that's handed to them.

[Kyle]: Well and so, an example of this that I do a lot with teenagers, Sara. That I think every parent listening, if you have a teenager, a kid in middle school, you know, by sixth grade I’d definitely be doing this. Is as the new semester's starting up, this is a fantastic practice, to sit down with them with school and start teaching them how to own their education. You know, to where you sit down and you do something like this with their, you know, their grades and just say to them “hey, what classes are you taking? What grades would you like to make in those classes?” and you sit them and let them design that and then, you just support that outcome. So, you just say to them “okay, that's great, you might throw in-- I thought maybe you could get a little higher in that class, but if a B's the best you think, okay, we'll go with that” or you might say “wow, you're saying that A in that AP class, that seems hard, do you think you can do it?” and they say “yeah”, cool. So, but then I said “how could I help you achieve that?”.

[Kyle]: So, I want them by this sixth grade and definitely by ninth grade, to start owning that. It's not yours, it is not the parents’ job to make their kids get grades. I want the kids to own how they express themselves at school, so I think that's one specific area that I think parents really need to be intentional about, because there's so much conflict that happens and so much-- I think even when kids get the A's or B's, many of them will tell me they did it because they would get in trouble if they didn't or their parents would be disappointed if they didn't. They didn't even get it because they wanted to get it, you know? They feel like they did it for the express reason their parents wanted it and, at what point are they going to want it? You know, at some point the parent has to hand that off to the kid.

[Sara]: And you want to be careful with that because, if you raise children who are “I am doing this because of an external force telling me or making me do it”, that's very different than being self-directed and “something inside of me is achieving this”. They will always need that external control.

[Sara]: And they won't be accomplishing things for themselves and go out into the self-guided future. So, you want to be working to build that and hand that over to them.

[Kyle]: I helped college kids that parents were still doing it, still paying them for grades in college, because the kid couldn't seem to motivate themselves outside of that external force, yeah.

[Sara]: And then they head into a workforce.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and then, now they're gonna need a boss to do that for them; that's gonna cause issues.

[Sara]: Well, in relationship it's gonna cause problems because “I’m doing things because people make me and/or bribe me”, you know. So, you just not to say all of that is a problem, just evaluate your relationship, evaluate that in your child and go “do I need to be taking some steps back here?”

[Kyle]: So, some areas that I think are like-- For instance, I’ll give an example. Our five-year-old, sure last year she had some really big goals. She wanted to learn how to swim, she wanted to learn how to ride her bike, she wanted to be more-- Eat more different types of food, more than she was eating because she had a very limited palette on food and she wanted to know how to read, and those are four gigantic goals. So far, she's achieved two. I was just talking to her this morning like “how do you feel you're doing on the food thing?” and she's like “well, I have tried more foods” and then her older sister said “yeah, but I think you got rid of other foods, so I think you actually have a limited--”, you know, but then the one that still we still have time, there's some good weather the next week and she still wants to learn how to ride that bike.

[Sara]: Well, she sort of can, she just--

[Kyle]: Exactly, I think we're gonna get that done, I think we're gonna get that done this next week.

[Sara]: And still like, you know, the whole idea is there progress and she's moving in that direction. And she is. Because that's what we're wanting to teach, right? That you see something and you're moving, you're finding pathways and you're going in that direction.

[Kyle]: Now, I want to point out that Sara and I model, you know, you and I modeled these things to the kids, we'll tell them our goals. So, they'll see us writing down and typically, you and I have always done it in different categories, like maybe there's a learning goal. So, there's certain like, I want to read another parenting book this year, I want to read a marriage book this year, I want to be able to change this in the business, so there's like a business goal. Maybe there's like, a relationship goal, I want to make sure I’m going on more dates with you or something like that. So, they'll see it.
[Sara]: Career, finances, you guys can kind of come up with--

[Kyle]: Spirituality, you know, all those kinds of different categories. Try not to do too many, you know, maybe four or five different categories, maybe some exercise goals, you know, fitness, physical, mental, all those different kinds of things that we want to show the kids. There's a bunch of different categories, you don’t have to do all of them, just pick a few of them and then we get to celebrate when we achieve these goals.

[Sara]: Yeah, don't make 50 goals [Laughter]

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, like this past year, one of the goals we set was to buy a new house and we did it, it was fantastic. I mean and I felt so empowered that when January came around, I thought “that's a goal” and even though all the other years we thought about doing it, until I actually made that the goal, I was just not as intentional about it.

[Sara]: Yeah, that's how I was gonna say it, it sets the intention. There's something about writing it down and really owning it and again, like I said, you're not choosing 50. So, you're really choosing “where am I setting my intention?” and then you model that for the kids and so, we would talk. They knew that was a goal and we would talk about our process. So, because that we want to model that for them “So, this is what we're doing to achieve our goal. If things fell apart in some way, this is what we're doing to find a new pathway to achieve the goal” and we're appropriately honest with them about those steps, so that they can see it and learn from them.

[Kyle]: And even here's the support, from you guys I might need to achieve that goal, right?
[Kyle]: So, if we could kind of wrap up the discussion, what's something--? I wanted to maybe share what's a goal you and I, you know, are setting individually about parenting in particular, right? I was sharing with you before this, that I think two things I’ve identified that I really want to work on is, one, I’ve gotten kind of sloppy on not guiding, you know? And more demanding. So, I want to be more intentional about guiding the kids and certain things that we're trying to work on, you know? And I need to figure out specifically about what that's going to look like, but that's an overall picture. As I find I’m more like “do this, do that, do this, do this” instead of like “hey, let me show you how to do that” or “let's see, you seem to be struggling with that, let me help you with that”, right? And then, the other one would be sibling conflict. Is even though I think it happens-- It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does, you and I sometimes or me particularly, are not going back to those skills of coaching the kids through the sibling conflict and we'll have a later podcast about how to do that, but I want to get better at being more intentional about that.
[Sara]: Yeah, no, because sometimes we're, you know, we're having to do the work ourselves, so we can parent in the way we want a parent and you know, I talked to you about that last week, how I wanted-- We moved and we've had so much going on, that I feel a little sloppy in some of the things that I felt like, I had a little more-- I was more directed in. Now, I feel--
[Kyle]: More disciplined, yeah.
[Sara]: Yes, and so, sibling conflict is when I was talking to you about, where I thought “okay, I want to get back to you because sometimes I’m stepping in to mediate and I need them talking to each other” and so, I actually relate to that same goal, that was something I really wanted to be thinking about and then, another one that I want to build in, is some spiritual discipline.
[Sara]: And again, I feel like it's something I’ve gotten a little away from and I want to pull that back in. So, there's just some things I had some organization, I feel like I’ve lost some of my organization and things that I want to hand them, skills I want to hand them.
[Sara]: And as they are getting older and older, you know, you have so much time, so I just want to come together with my schedule and clean that up and be more attentional.
[Kyle]: Well, fantastic. Well, I hope this conversation was helpful to everybody listening and thank you so much for listening. I would love-- We'd love your feedback, I know soon we're going to be sharing a podcast, some comments that came from a listener who asked specific questions. So, we'd love for your feedback and I’d love to hear maybe traditions you do as the new year rolls around, maybe goals you're setting as a parent; would love all those kinds of comments. You can reach us by commenting on, you know, this particular podcast. We're on YouTube, at ParentingLegacy on YouTube. We're also online at parentinglegacy.com and there, you can find blogs and access to this podcast, but we'd love for you to give us, you know, a five-star review, share the podcast with others, so we can obviously reach more people. So, we hope you guys had a fantastic Christmas and thank you so much for listening and we just want to say happy new year!
[Sara]: Happy new year.
[Kyle]: Yeah, and goodbye.
[Kyle]: The Art of Raising Humans podcast should not be considered or used as counseling, but for educational purposes only.