Episode 63

[Kyle]: Hello and in today's podcasts we're going to answer this question, what do I do to my kid when they do… Fill in the blank. 

[Music]

[Kyle]: Hello, and welcome to episode 63 of The Art of Raising Humans. I’m Kyle.

[Sara]: And I’m Sara.

[Kyle]: And today we've got an important topic to discuss. So, we've hit upon-- We've started the new year, Sara, with two kind of foundational concepts, right? So, we kind of talked about the different parenting styles in the first two as we come into this new year.

[Sara]: Yeah

[Kyle]: So, that way if parents are saying “hey, I might want to change some things, tweak some things”. So, we kind of talked about authoritarian parenting and permissive and then, we talked about Loving Guidance, Peaceful Parenting, that kind of thing in the last one, okay? Now, we're about to do some really cool stuff. So, we've got a lot of speaking events coming up, are you excited about that?

[Kyle]: Okay. So, we've got some speaking events coming up, we've got a really big one February 4th here in Tulsa that we're doing. Where hopefully 100 or more families are going to come to that and we'll hopefully be able to help impact some families in a positive way, you know?

[Kyle]: So, in that discussion as we were talking about what we were going to do, there was an important question that came up, that we thought it's going to be kind of difficult to totally address this, you know, in this conference. So, we thought “let's just discuss it in this podcast”.

[Sara]: Right, yeah. Because some topics you just don't have enough time, right? And this won't be enough time either, but we can throw a piece at it.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and so, in February we've got I think like six speaking events we're doing. Some at schools, some at churches, some in small groups, some in big groups. So, we just want to continue to throw out to the audience. If you are interested in Sara and I, I don't care where you're at throughout the world, I don't know if we can make it happen, but it’d be cool if we could. In today's age with all technology, we could probably do more than we think we could. So, if you're interested in us coming and speaking and kind of sharing these skills or this kind of way of parenting with your group, your church, your faith community, whatever it is, I’d for love you to reach out. You can email info@parentinglegacy.com. Our website is parentinglegacy.com. You can also comment on the Art of Raising Humans, on the podcast. So, anyways, we'd love to delve into it.

[Kyle]: So, this topic in particular, Sara, we have touched upon it in other podcasts, where we've talked about consequences. We've talked about it in other in other-- Another ways throughout these, but we want to kind of dive into a little bit more today, okay?

[Kyle]: And basically the question I think a lot of parents-- You know, they're intrigued by parenting without fear and shame, maybe they want to move away from a punishment-based approach, but then there's this one question that comes up a lot, which is “what do I do to my kid when they do…?”

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, it's that thought of “okay…”. Well, I mean, something maybe even really horrible, they-- They did some really bad choices and there's got to be a consequence to that. Chaos will ensue if we don't--

[Kyle]: I mean, from the small to “what do I do when I tell them to brush his teeth and he doesn't?” to “what do I do when he hits his sister?” Or “what do I do when she gets bad grades and flunks school?”.

[Sara]: Yeah, “what if they steal gum from a store?”

[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, to “what do I do if he smoked pot?” or “what do I do if he's looking at pornography on his phone?”, right? So, all these kinds of topics, they come around to that question “what do I do to my kid when they do this thing?”.

[Kyle]: Okay, and so, we want to hit upon this, because I think this was very much in our thinking too, right? When we first started parenting.

[Sara]: Yeah, I think it's-- I mean, I don’t want to say everyone thinks this way, but I think it's pretty common to think there's a wrong and part of making that right is a punishment, a consequence to the person who did the wrong action. We see it all over in society and there needs to be a punishment.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, I love how you just said that. We heard a lot as kids like “two wrongs don't make a right”, so it's almost like, the equation that I do sometimes for parents when I’m in session with parents and coaching them, is I’ll put on a dry-erase board. A kid does something wrong or “bad” and then you add some punishment, something you did to the kid and then that equals good. That's typically the equation that a lot of parents are thinking from.

[Sara]: Yeah, I think even the school system they'll be like “okay, we told you your child did this thing, you're going to take care of this at home, right?” and everyone-- That means you're going to punish this at home or the parents want to know what the school did and there's just this mentality everywhere--

[Kyle]: There has to be something done.

[Kyle]: Yeah. I mean, even thinking like the words I wrote down was “you got to hold them accountable”, right?

[Sara]: Yeah, what are you going to do? Let them get away with it?

[Sara]: And then they'll just keep doing it because there was no punishment.

[Kyle]: Yes. Well, then it’s telling you you're being permissive, you're kind of enabling the behavior, you know? You're too scared to do something to that person for what they did and that's going to make it more likely they do more things like that in the future.

[Sara]: And then, I care about my child and I want them to be successful. I want them to have friends and do well in all the areas of life as they're growing up and into adulthood. So, I’ve got to punch them, so hopefully they'll stop doing those things and be a successful person.

[Kyle]: Yeah, like I’m even thinking it's real common. I like sports, you like sports and when we're watching ESPN or some kind of a sports, you know, broadcast. If a player has done something, you know, off the field or on, there's typically a conversation of what-- They might use the word punishment, but they might use the word-- How is that player going to be held accountable for what they've done? What are the consequences? There's got to be some consequences for the actions, okay? And so, when I hear that, I’m watching it, they immediately then start thinking all the things we need to do to that person to then somehow change that outcome in the future.

[Sara]: Right. If we give them the right punishment, then they won't do that thing again.

[Sara]: They'll be more successful in the future.

[Sara]: You know, that's where we-- I remember a lot of parents, even myself thinking “what's going to be the right punishment?”. Each action needs this magical punishment that will deter them from ever doing that again or consequence, you know? Consequence punishment, those words are used, you know, by different people.

[Kyle]: Interchangeably, yeah.

[Sara]: Yeah, and I think the crim-- You know, we see the justice system, right? They spend a lot of time thinking of just the right “this is how many years you should be in jail. This is what your fines should be if you speed”. You know, we work really, really hard to come up with the right consequence.

[Kyle]: I almost think even the greater to the bigger picture, Sara, is if we don't, then other people will think it's okay to do that.

[Sara]: Oh, for sure. Sure.

[Kyle]: And also, if we do the right one, if we hold them accountable the right way or discipline the right way, typically discipline being used as punishment. If we do it the correct way and get just the right outcome, then we'll deter people from doing that in the future too.

[Sara]: Yeah, they'll look at that'll be an example to other people and you even hear that, especially in sports and stuff, we need to make an example of this situation.

[Kyle]: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m even thinking lots of times. even how it's laughed about. how with these professional players who have so much money, is they'll try to find them and they'll talk about how that's not a big enough one. That player just-- It's always got to be something that's going to hurt them, you know? So, maybe you can't physically hurt that person, but you can hurt their wallet, you can hurt their, you know, I guess in today's society you could hurt their, you know, their cred, their credentials, their-- Like whatever it would be on social media. You could hurt how they're seen in the public eye; you could shame them that way. I mean, I think a lot of it is that, right? So, somebody does something, we've got to shame them to where everybody thinks bad of them.

[Sara]: Oh, shame is a very, very powerful and frequently used form of punishment or consequence.

[Kyle]: Yeah, like I’m even thinking if there was one lady I was listening to, this happened a while back, where she said something that was definitely super insensitive, super inappropriate on Twitter or something and she was flying to Africa. I can't remember the whole story, but in that flight, she didn't know that what she said was obviously-- She was ignorant of what she was saying and then by time she arrived to where she was going to Africa, she'd been fired from her job, all these consequences happened. All in attempt for everyone to say “you're bad, what you did was wrong”, right?

[Sara]: Yeah, and to demonstrate, we gave her consequence.

[Kyle]: Yes, yeah. So, I just-- We give that idea because that is so prevalent in our culture and our world and that equation is so hard to get past, that it seems like there's no other equation. If I don't do the equation, you did something bad, so now I hurt you or I cause something-- I definitely do something you don't like. I tell parents if the kid doesn't like it, that's even better, you know? So, if you want to do something that the kid really hates that you do, that that's going to equal good and I want parents to kind of just sit with that equation for a moment and just think “does that sound healthy?”, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah. I think you immediately go to, if we don't do that, it will be chaos.

[Sara]: The world would be chaos. Everyone would just be doing whatever they wanted and be horrible.
[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. Anarchy, right? Okay, yeah. So, Sara and I want to say we agree with that. We agree, it would be anarchy. That the reason why you have laws and you have guidelines and you have rules in a society is to set boundaries, okay?

[Sara]: Yeah, that's what I was immediately thinking. Okay, we agree and there's more. There's more.

[Kyle]: Yes, there is more, but we want to say yes.

[Sara]: We're going to shift to that boundary word comes up here, which we just talked about. Boundaries are healthy and important and actually yield freedom.

[Kyle]: Yeah. Well, even I’m thinking on sports, Sara, the rules on the field are there to keep people safe, are there to help the game be as fair as possible, right? Even then we still get upset at some of those rules and we're always trying to tweak them to make it “more fair”, right?

[Kyle]: But we have laws in society to maintain a sense of order, right? Okay. So, all of that you and I think is important, those things are important. Playing a game without any rules is just crazy, it's just like, it wouldn't be very fun, it wouldn't be fun at all, right? Okay, and yes, we agree even that there are consequences to all our actions. There are always consequences to what we do. Okay. So, then I want to say the difference is we are not trying to raise our kids like it's a court system. We're not trying to raise our kids like it's a business or it's not the NFL, it's not the MLB or the NBA. We're a family, right? And the key distinction between those organizations or those societal structures is we have a relationship.

[Sara]: Right, and I would even say there's some businesses moving away from that model, right?

[Kyle]: Oh, yeah. It’s true, yeah.

[Sara]: They are trying to move into more of a--

[Kyle]: A relation-based type of connection.

[Sara]: School systems are, there's a lot of classrooms. There's entire movements like Conscious Discipline that are working towards that.

[Sara]: So, even though there's that's so prevalent society, there are parts of society that are shifting away to that and going into what we're talking about here.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and the reason why they're doing that, is because relationship is such a better motivational tool to help change behavior.

[Sara]: It is.

[Kyle]: Like, in our marriage, if we were to use the same structures and the same kind of systems that are in place in our society to run our marriage, it would not work very long. If every time I did something you didn't like you “I tried to think of the right punishment”. Like, if I lived--

[Sara]: Massively unhealthy.

[Kyle]: If we lived by that equation, that you do something I don't like, so then I do something I don't like to you, that's why people get divorced! I mean, that's the essence of why relationships fall apart, right?

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah, we actually more call it revenge in that kind of situation, right?

[Kyle]: Yes, yeah, and I’m thinking-- So, we wouldn't do-- I’ve had friendships I’ve had conflict with and if I try to do a tit for tat thing, where you did this thing, so now I’m going to--

[Sara]: There has to be a consequence or punishment for it, this is what it is.

[Kyle]: Maybe I’m not going to call you for a while to teach you a lesson, where-- None of us thinks that's going to actually resolve the conflict. It's not going to resolve it, okay?

[Kyle]: It might shift it in a sense of you might just avoid the conflict by doing that, you might teach that person to never bring that up again or talk like that to you again, but it doesn't actually resolve what the consequences were and that's why relationships it’s so much more powerful, because the consequences that happen without me doing anything to you, are actually more powerful than the consequences I impose on you, you know? So, for instance, when I do something you don't like and it hurts your feelings, that consequence has already happened whether or not you do something to me or not. I saw this all the time in school, the failure of trying to-- Like, a kid that I had a relationship with and how I could help change the situation through that relationship, to a kid I didn't know as well and I just-- And we just looked in the school book and said “what's the consequence for this?”, right?

[Kyle]: Almost never did that change the kid's behavior, you know?

[Kyle]: Typically the kid resented it the kid got mad or the kid just got better at hiding, you know? But almost 100% of the time it did not change the behavior. Whereas not to say 100% time it did change the behavior through the relationship, but it made it more likely to change because the kid knew me and I knew the kid and I could actually say “Hey, listen, here's the behavior I’m wanting from you, let's work on that together”. It would actually result. So, I’m thinking of Sara, when a kid would hit another kid, you know, typically the other parent would say “well, what's the consequence? What is the thing that you are going to do? What's the guideline for this?”, you know? As if that's going to keep the kid from ever hitting their kid again.

[Sara]: Yeah. We wouldn't have-- We wouldn't need a prison system if that really worked very well, all right?

[Sara]: I understand we need to put unsafe people in places where the rest of the world can be safe, so I’m not arguing against that. But if it was successful, if a lot of punishment-- Most of those people have been punished a lot and they're still sitting there, right? And so, it just shows their shortcomings to that system. The system of punishment consequences it's this external control and it can only be so successful. It has its limitations and so, we have this other option of using relationship, which is much more enticing. It actually deals with the heart and the inside of the person, not just this external control of the person and that just--

[Kyle]: Well. So, even when you bring up the justice system, that's a great example, because when I did drug and alcohol counseling for many, many years, a lot of these people had just gotten out of prison or jail in some form of fashion, because they've been arrested for using too much drugs or drinking alcohol too much and getting DUIs and almost every one of them, if they had made a change in prison, it wasn't because of the punishment, it was because of a relationship. Like, somehow, they saw how it was hurting their family or they saw how their kid no longer felt safe around them or they saw how it was that their parents were very sad about what happened. It was the impact, the consequences that happened on the people they cared about or there was some kind of like faith conversion type thing, where they had a different relationship with God or something like that. But there was not one of them who said they went to prison and they just thought that was a fantastic experience and they came out better for it, you know?

[Kyle]: Many of them were still very upset at the justice system, felt like it was wrongfully done, which is what happens in most punishments. Just like when kids get grounded or get like-- They're spending all their time not thinking about what they've done, but about how unfair share all the things that were done to them where.

[Sara]: Yeah, they're upset and the idea that we're going to go away and really think about it and improve ourselves as we sit there alone, doesn't just really happen. You can think about your own life, those times that didn't really happen.

[Kyle]: Well, most kids report when they're setting the time out. They're not thinking about what they did, they're thinking about either how bad they are or how bad you are.

[Sara]: Yeah, or how they can get away with it better.

[Sara]: You know, that site too where they're like “okay, next time when I try to do that, this is what I need to do”.

[Kyle]: Yeah. So, I want-- If you're if you're listening to this podcast, what we're trying to say is rules are necessary, laws are necessary, boundaries are great. All these things are important in society, but I want you to start thinking about a different equation within your family, within your marriage and with your friendships. Is that what I’ve noticed when I put on the board, you know, kid does something bad or something I don't like or something harmful or unhealthy. Plus, you know, me drawing closer supporting, guiding my kid, loving my kid, teaching my kid, equipping my kid, all these kinds of things. That equals better behavior.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. So, the child fails in some way, let's say they hit another kid, punch their brother or something, then you think “okay, obviously this child needs to learn regulation, they need to learn how to solve a conflict” and so, if you move into that space, whoa! It seems like something went really wrong there, you were really upset and so, you punched your brother. Tell me about that and then, you're actually coming together and you're hearing what's going on inside the child and equipping them with the skills to them the next time they're upset with someone--

[Kyle]: They can do it better.

[Sara]: Yeah, yeah. They're like “oh, okay, I remember. I can do this and this and I can do that and” that and I can reach out to so and so for help and that--

[Kyle]: Well, and that's what I wrote down here, that following the first equation, it would never be seen as a healthy way to resolve conflict and what punishment and consequence does, is it fails to resolve the conflict or teach the child or the person new skills by how to do it. So, it just fails to do that. So, if that situation comes up again, they're likely to do that again, you know?

[Sara]: Yeah, they didn't gain anything from the last time. I mean, they'll probably think ‘oh great, I’m going to be grounded’, but they're probably so in the moment and so upset and dysregulated, they just repeat the same behavior. Maybe they shut down and walk away, but they didn't actually resolve it, they don't actually feel better inside. The best maybe they think “oh, at least I didn't punch him this time”.

[Kyle]: I mean, there's so many kids, Sara, who their parents have taken away their phones and the kids just get a burner phone and they find another phone to use, you know? Or they just buy their time to get back their phone and they haven't actually learned how to use it any better. Because many times they're actually confused why their phone got taken away, many of them don't even know why, like what's supposed to be happening? The equation is-- I guess what I’m saying is the equation they do something bad, then I do something bad to them and it goes-- Is there's no responsibility taken by the kid to change it, the only person taking responsibility is the parent. The parent is saying “I will take responsibility for you by then punishing you or imposing these consequences on you and then that is going to change you”. Do you see like in that equation, nowhere is the kid needing to take that responsibility [Unintelligible]

[Sara]: Same “oh, this is what I did, this is what I needed time”.

[Kyle]: Yes. Owning it, yes, yes.

[Sara]: Okay, now I get. That moment isn't really happening.

[Kyle]: In counseling we call that “I want the kid to show an awareness, insight and understanding”. Those are three things I’m looking for a kid. When a kid is messed up, the goal is I want him to have some awareness, insight and understanding on what his behavior was and how it impacted others in his life, right?

[Kyle]: And once a kid shows that, you'll see the kid then wants to change it.

[Sara]: And that happens in relationship. Because if I go in, I’m like “all right, tell me what you did”, you know? The kid may give you this little answer, but you're not really getting to the heart of the matter. You can tell when kids know what you're supposed-- What they're supposed to say, what you want to hear and so, they just say that to you. That's different than coming together in relationship and helping them explore “well, what happened there?”.

[Sara]: And then “what's going to happen now because you made that choice?”.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and so, I would add this, when we do impose those consequences or those punishments on the kid, it actually distracts the kid from the real consequences, okay? And so, once again, going back to school I saw this happen a lot, where a kid had gotten mad and impulsively hit another kid who was his friend, you know? And then the parents, the teachers, all wanted something done to that kid, because the kid was aggressive and hurt the other kid, right? And so, I understand that impulse, but the kid then thinks that that is now the consequence. They don't understand that the consequence isn't whatever the school is going to do to you, the consequence is what happens with you and your friend now.

[Kyle]: Like, now your friend isn't going to want to be your friend, now the other kids in class aren't going to want to hang out with you. Those kids in class are going to go home and tell their parents about you and tell them not to hang out with you, you know? So, they're in everything we do in life, there are consequences constantly happening. Even I would say to parents, when we yell at our kids, there are consequences to that. When we impose [Unintelligible], there are consequences to that too, right? So, I know we're hyper vigilant about the fear of “what if I don't do something to him?”, right? Like, then now, we were aware that there's consequences to that, right? That now he's going to think he can get away with it and yada, yada, yada right? But what are the consequences then if we blow up about it? What are the consequences with if we just take his phone and say “you got bad grades, I’m taking your phone” and the kid's like “okay, I don't understand why that's connected”, you know?

[Kyle]: So, there are consequences to every action and I want the sooner we can help our kids understand that in good ways, positive ways and unhealthy ways, you know? That when you hugged your brother or sister, there was consequences to that too. You know, when you wanted to yell at me and you didn't, there was consequences to that.

[Kyle]: Right? And I think one of the biggest consequences when we do the approach of the first equation, Sara, is we start to set up this like, this narrative where the kid doesn't believe you are for them. The kid believes you are against them, that it's your job to stop them from doing better.

[Sara]: You're basically just this watchdog or Santa Claus or something. “I’m watching you every move” and then you're going to lose out or you know, in some way you're going to experience suffering if you do the wrong step. Which doesn't make you feel any closer to somebody if that's their role--

[Kyle]: Sara, I’m dealing with some kids right now who are in college and they are completely unmotivated and when we explore motivation, you know what they tell me? Is they don't know how to motivate themselves, because they were always motivated with fear. You know, they're always motivated with-- They got good grades because they get grounded if they didn't. They would, you know, not express their anger because if they did, they get their phone taken away. Whatever, right? And so, everything when they're looking at now trying to motivate themselves towards their own future, they just don't know how to do it.

[Sara]: I think to me that was one of the ones that really sunk it. I don't know, I really just thought it was that “aha” moment for me, just that external control. When you are managing your child's behavior with punishments, consequences, things like that, it's always this thing outside of the child controlling their behavior, that's such a good example. Because then it's like “why would I do anything? I’m used to being nudged and forced and pushed in a certain direction”, instead of it coming from something inside of the child.

[Sara]: Because that external control is just so powerful to me, versus switching that to an internal, what they call internal locus of control. That internal system inside of me that says “oh, I’m going to study” or “I’m going to get grades” or “I’m going to be kind to somebody even when I’m mad” or “I’m going to calm down in this moment, because of something I know inside of me that I want to do”.

[Kyle]: Yes, yeah. Well, you become self-determined, that's what I’m doing with a lot of kids. I’m talking about how do you determine your own future, right? Because they for so long have let other adults, teachers and stuff, determine their outcomes for them because they don't think they have it within themselves, you know?

[Sara]: And they haven't been walked through a lot of those consequences, you know? Because it's all been guided for them and so, they haven't really been able to explore and experience, even sometimes negative consequences. Not punishments, but “oh, I didn't bring in my homework. I didn't get it done and so, now this is” -- You know, sometimes even us as adults, we do sometimes make a bad choice and then we have to experience the consequence and then we learn from it. But it's through that exploration and understanding and insight of what really happened in the moment, not from this external punishment that was given to me, but exploring what really happened there and learning from it.

[Kyle]: Well, because that goes to the-- What we know about change is change-- We only change, we only are successful at changes as humans, when we're able to take responsibility for our actions and then, I can make different choices and take different actions. But until I can take responsibility for what I’ve done, I don't ever have any need to change, right? And so, when you have that first equation, it takes that away. The kid can't take responsibility because you are taking responsibility, you know? So, once again, I loved your example too of the external control. That's why we're saying those like, the laws and the rules are in place, because there is a need to have external control, because the goal isn't for them to control themselves, it's to say “I as the ref I’m going to control you, by having these things and during this game”. But inevitably you're not wanting to raise good NFL players, you're wanting to raise really--

[Sara]: There's no relationship nor is there a possibility that the ref is going to build a great relationship with every player.

[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah, you’re wanting to raise--

[Sara]: That's not the time or there's no possibility. That's why there's laws for driving and laws for all kinds of things, because you can't possibly use relationship in that moment.

[Kyle]: Yeah, it's not a tool you can use. So, we want to use relationship as the most powerful tool you have, to help raise this healthy human, okay? I’m thinking real quick, just an example, Sara. Just what I’ll give us lots of-- Real common one lately. Kid gets in trouble because he's been looking at pornography on his phone, right? So, then the parents say “well, we got to do something about that”, right? So, he's got to be punished in some way, some way he can't go hang out with his friends now or--

[Sara]: Lose his phone for a month or--

[Kyle]: Yeah, he's grounded in some capacity, right? Okay. So, what I’m wanting parents to do in a situation like that, so this is just the steps I would take is, first, what is the problem? You know? What is it you're wanting to change? So, if the goal is you would like him not to look at pornography, then does just taking a device away for a couple weeks make that happen? You know? Maybe for a couple weeks it makes it happen or maybe the kid just finds other ways to look at it, right? Inevitably if your goal is--

[Sara]: [Unintelligible] change inside the child.

[Kyle]: Yeah, yeah. Inevitably if you're just trying to stop the kid, if you just want to stop him for this moment. Sure, then do whatever you can to that kid, right? Do take his stuff away, do all that kind of stuff. But it's gonna become an ongoing battle between you and the kid, when really this is an issue inside the kid. This is something the kid has to figure out on their own-- I mean, not on their own, I guess with you, right? So, it's really a thing about guiding and mentoring, right? And when they leave your house, you want them to know how to have the skill to do that.

[Kyle]: So, if your goal is just momentary control, you can get that to some extent. I mean, like I said, a lot of kids I know have burner phones, they'll find the ways and that's really frustrating or they tell you they're not smoking and they really are at school or whatever. So, there's all types of ways the kid will let you know they cannot be controlled, you know? You're monitoring them with Life360 and the kid will tell me they just leave their phone at some friend's house and go wherever they want, right? So, all these ways in which we think we're controlling the kid with these external things, it's just, it's a mirage. So, and even if we were wanting the kid to own this and take responsibility for it. So, in summary, okay? Here's what I would say, like a situation like that, but with any situation. I don't care if a kid’s two, three, all the way up to 18, okay? In summary, I kind of just wanted to kind of get this big idea. When a child or anyone in your life does behavior that is unhealthy, destructive or you just don't like it or desire it, instead of thinking about what we need to do to that person. So, instead of a husband and wife, you know, to parents sitting down going “what do we need to do to the kid?”. Instead ask yourself “what can we do to support our child to do it differently next time?”.

[Kyle]: So, what can we do to support our child to do it differently next time? You see how that goes along with the high support and high expectations, okay? Remember the only reason why any of these behaviors were a conflict within you and in your families, is because you don't like them, because you don't want them, you don't think they're helpful to your kid. So, how can I support my child to do it different next time? And I’ll be honest with you, this is what Sara and I do in our marriage, this is what I would do with every friendship that I have a conflict with, is I would want to think to myself “okay, I didn't like what my friend did, how can I go back and support my friend to do it different next time?”. Instead of demanding it from him or demanding it from you as my wife or demanding it for my kids, I want to support them to help them achieve those high expectations.

[Kyle]: So, I know this was a deep topic and I’m sure we'll discuss it more, but I hope it gave you some thoughts that you don't need to live by that equation. It doesn't need to be they do something wrong or bad, so you do something to them. You don't need to do something to them, we want you to do something with them. So, with them, hand in hand, co-create a new outcome by discipling them, instead of just like, trying to control the behavior and change it that way, you know? So, I hope that gives you some new ways of thinking it. I know it, once again, doesn't completely answer every situation.

[Sara]: No, yeah. It's a really vast subject and it's one I think it took us a long time to wrap our heads around and it's still something we work out and have to just, talk through and work through and learn and grow in all the time.

[Kyle]: Yeah, and if you have even specific situations where you're like “hey, how would this work with this?”, feel free to email us. Send that to us, okay? We would love to use a podcast at some point to address that and give you some more tools to do it, because that's why we're doing this whole podcast, you know?

[Kyle]: So, we really appreciate you taking the time. Please like the podcast, please share this with people. We're excited about these speaking events coming up, so hopefully a bunch more people will be exposed to this information, to help support them to be the parents they want to be. So, we really appreciate your time.

[Sara]: Thanks for listening.

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